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New junior developers can’t code

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131–138 of 138 posts

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#131
One very recent anecdote about this we tasked a new graduate with the task of extracting some tabular data from a relatively small worksheet and processing it. This is something you'd use a dataframe or alternative for.

Because he used the words 'Google Worksheet' in his prompting, the LLM spit out some code using the Google Sheets API. This was less than helpful, and it took some time to realize why he was struggling.

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#132

I had a similar thought the other day when playing with Deepseek-coder. I asked it to do a problem I had just figured in a system I didn't know (opencv). The code deepseek gave was basically the same as what I had figured out, which I was pretty impressed by. But then I thought that if I had just used that code as is, it probably would have worked but I wouldn't have learned anything about opencv. These new tools can…

> But then I thought that if I had just used that code as is, it probably would have worked but I wouldn't have learned anything about opencv. A large majority of people would be very, very happy with this. I don't have to know how to fix my car to drive it and thank God for that! I think it's wonderful that LLMs enable someone to create useful things without understanding what's happening under the hood. I also hope…

I agree with that. I think part of moving out of junior status is thinking about maintenance and fixing bugs, which will be much harder without the underlying learning.

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#134
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say anything about their morality, just that by some statistics gen z is better than previous generations. They are not better or worse. Just different. Their music sucks, though.

“Better” because they’ve found even worse replacements. Who needs to get a girl pregnant, when you can jack off twice a day to a unique body every day for the next decade? Heck, why even get married or even get a girlfriend at all, at any point (also a statistical low)? Who needs alcohol and drugs, when you can drown your sorrows into hundreds of hours of gaming? And you’ve been doing this since you were 10 years old…

> Who needs to get a girl pregnant, when you can jack off twice a day to a unique body every day for the next decade?

Buddy, here's the straight dope. If you're mad that teenage pregnancies are going down on average, you literally lack the basic empathy required to comment on the internet. Log off, you are just too unintelligent to contribute to this discussion.

If you're not trolling then I am seriously worried that you are autistic or mentally disabled and may not know it. This is outrageous behavior and I've seen you repeat this psychopathic bullshit for years now. Do you live in the real world? Do you have healthy relationships with family members or friends that share these ridiculous principles with you? It defies normalcy.

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#135

The reason why these articles appear every 5 years is because many engineers pride themselves on how they solve problems. And then when they see people solving those problems without putting in the hard work that they had to put in, it really bothers them. This is a timeless post. We'll see it today. We'll see it in five years. We'll see it in 10 years.

Yes. Ten years ago some friends asked me to teach PHP to them, I showed them the book I learned from 20 years ago. It had 1200 pages and you could learn web development and MySQL without using the Internet. No one used that book. They searched for easy ingestable tutorials and went from there. After a year, some of them actually wrote software in production. I can't know if more or less of them would be able to write…

dusts off HN account

AI coding is even more impactful considering that most coding-oriented AIs will explain what the generated code does. My offline combo of Ollama, Qwen Coder 14b, and the Continue.dev VS Code extension will always explain what it did at the end of each chat message in understandable English. And if I'm still confused, I can literally type in "I don't understand these changes could you walk me through it" and it will walk me through the code changes with the whole codebase as context/RAG material. All running on-device with no token limits or subscription fees (runs really slow, but still $0), only limited by the computer hardware itself.

In fact, I credit my AI stack with removing a huge coding "writer's block" I've had since recovering from a mental health crisis right before the start of the COVID lockdown, and has made me fall in love with building software all over again.

And it's only going to get even better the more open/shared source on-device stuff gets released. Forget multimodal models, these specialized tools are where the real magic is happening!

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#136

Todays junior dev that is copying AI code without understanding it, is the same as the junior dev several years ago who did the same with stack overflow code. This is a mindset, and I don't think AI code is changing the number of people with this mindset. What it may be doing though, is letting them get away with it for longer.

It is not the same imho; the code copied from SO, they had to change a bit; even if there was no understanding in the beginning, after changing and running and changing and running in a loop until it works, you learn something (often about how variables work). This is more like when I was typing in BASIC source from magazines in the early 80s and changing things to see if I could cheat in a game or make the gameplay…

> in the real world, senior programmers (people who are hired in that role and make money for >=decade, not whatever your feeling what it should be is) are not very different either. Very many don't know what they are doing either, just they deliver by trial and error and got their years and stripes in, still barely understanding what they are doing.

Yup. I had to deal with that last year when some senior Microsoft devs tried to shove serverless Azure stuff into something that was supposed to be for a Seattle community group full of non-technical people. The group lead was totally oblivious to how serverless on-demand pricing worked and wanted a fixed monthly cost. That whole project ended up getting scrapped and replaced with an Excel spreadsheet.

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Better” because they’ve found even worse replacements. Who needs to get a girl pregnant, when you can jack off twice a day to a unique body every day for the next decade? Heck, why even get married or even get a girlfriend at all, at any point (also a statistical low)? Who needs alcohol and drugs, when you can drown your sorrows into hundreds of hours of gaming? And you’ve been doing this since you were 10 years old…

> Who needs to get a girl pregnant, when you can jack off twice a day to a unique body every day for the next decade? Buddy, here's the straight dope. If you're mad that teenage pregnancies are going down on average, you literally lack the basic empathy required to comment on the internet. Log off, you are just too unintelligent to contribute to this discussion. If you're not trolling then I am seriously worried that…

Your account is not even one year old, dude.

Also, great way to miss the point: I am all in favor of teen pregnancies going down; but if it’s because everyone is culturally stuck in an extended adolescence, that should not be confused with maturity, and the effects of that will be felt everywhere. I say "worse" replacements because if people aren't growing up, they will just do the original problematic activities later, while having their immaturity affect their lives and other people's lives longer.

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#138
post #130
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I already said they are technically not black boxes. We are not in disagreement here. I’m saying they are not black boxes at all. Not just “technically” > The point is that there is no one implementation of C. And the same is true for any other language too (to a lesser extent). That doesn’t matter for my argument. > It doesn't matter whether they are black boxes if you don't routinely inspect the boxes. Perhaps yo…

LLMs can be deterministic if you set the temp to zero. It's not feasibly debuggable though, I'll give you that. On this point it's not really different in principle from having a non-OSS compiler. Using OSS compilers are great because you can look at the source and trace problems and fix them, but people also use closed source compilers in their work too.

> LLMs can be deterministic if you set the temp to zero.

At which point, you the major benefit statistical models like of LLMs…

A lot of performance is lost if you fix the sampling step like that as well.

That’s why nobody does it…

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