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Tesla Paid Zero Federal Income Tax in 2024, Despite $2.3B in Income

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Re: Tesla Paid Zero Federal Income Tax in 2024, Despite $2.3B in Income

#131

Post by bmicraft »

roenxi wrote: post #117
jmward01 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess that explains why Elon is so poor and the company is valued at practically nothing compare to all other automakers.

Valuation != profits. Tesla's profits do not explain Musk's wealth, people have been pointing out for years that the valuations of companies like Tesla make little sense. There was a long stretch of many years where they were bleeding red ink like crazy with not much to show for it. The tax system works on accounting reality, not the opinions of stock traders.

But it _is_ profit, just without directly paying it out.

Re: Tesla Paid Zero Federal Income Tax in 2024, Despite $2.3B in Income

#132

Post by [deleted] »

erulabs wrote: post #15
ssklash wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what world is a massively profitable company paying almost nothing in taxes polarizing?

You have to come into the article believing a ton of things: 1. Tax credits are illegitimate 2. Accelerated depreciation is illegitimate 3. Ownership of productive companies is "hoarding wealth" 4. Journalism is in a battle with the current administration 5. Paying taxes is a good thing If you _don't_ buy into these premises, for which there is no argument given for or against, you'll be tilted against the author. If…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla Paid Zero Federal Income Tax in 2024, Despite $2.3B in Income

#133

Post by iforgot22 »

chrislongss wrote: post #97
jldugger wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4. Journalism is in a battle with the current administration Is this controversial?

Yes, as it should be. Criticize the policies, not an administration led by a party you don't align with.

Maybe it's better to say the current administration is battling journalism, in a one-sided way. There's a real difference, but it looks too much like splitting hairs.

Re: Tesla Paid Zero Federal Income Tax in 2024, Despite $2.3B in Income

#134

Post by bmicraft »

kemotep wrote: post #73

A Single Tax regime aka the Land Value Tax would make these articles a thing of the past. We could solve the deficit, pay down our debts and many people would pay less in taxes, if we eliminated all taxes and replaced them with a Land Value Tax.

Sounds a lot like you want to drive "The Poors" out of the city, because that would be how you'd do it.

Re: Tesla Paid Zero Federal Income Tax in 2024, Despite $2.3B in Income

#135

Post by sudosysgen »

missedthecue wrote: post #130
sudosysgen wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely not, no. Credits on profits incentivize short term profit taking, while credits in products incentivize number of units shipped. The second is much better for society. Think about it from the perspective of a company deciding between selling low margin cheap EVs in the short term before process efficiencies kick in, or selling expensive EVs now.

The idea is to stimulate both supply and demand. Credits for consumer only stimulate demand which may not be enough to compel literally hundreds of billions of dollars worth of CapEx, not to mention opportunity cost.

Consumer credits stimulate demand by increasing the cost consumers are willing to pay for a vehicle, shifting the demand curve, and greatly increasing the profitability in selling cars, provided it is done at scale. It can most definitely compell hundreds of billions of dollars of CapEx, and in many ways it's more effective than a tax break, because it will reduce losses if the venture never ends up being profitable (unlike a tax break which will only be worth it if the venture is eventually profitable, so there is less risk), and if it provides future market share through investments in the low end, especially in international competition, it can end up spurning more CapEx as it makes the more capital-intensive strategy more viable.

Re: Tesla Paid Zero Federal Income Tax in 2024, Despite $2.3B in Income

#136

Post by SideQuark »

ryandrake wrote: post #124
erulabs wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to come into the article believing a ton of things: 1. Tax credits are illegitimate 2. Accelerated depreciation is illegitimate 3. Ownership of productive companies is "hoarding wealth" 4. Journalism is in a battle with the current administration 5. Paying taxes is a good thing If you _don't_ buy into these premises, for which there is no argument given for or against, you'll be tilted against the author. If…

How about simply the principle: 1. I should be able to deduct the same sorts of things from my individual income that corporations routinely deduct from their income. If a corporation can legally shield all of their income from taxes, why can't I shield all of my income from taxes? Corporations can deduct the costs of all the things they have to do to make money and do weird depreciation tricks, but I cannot deduct t…

You do. The biggest of all tax giveaways is the home mortgage deduction and tax deduction on employer paid healthcare. The tax sheltered things like retirement accounts, HSAs, Roths, college savings plans, energy credits, home improvement credits, car breaks, annd do on, are also huge tax giveaways to citizens. Those are the biggest tax breaks in all US law, far larger than all of corporate breaks combined.

Then, as a citizen, you have tax cuts for kids, for school, for various small enterprises, for local this and that by jurisdiction, you do get depreciation on lots of goods. I could go on for the thousands and thousands of pages of personal income tax law.

Being ignorantly of a thing to arrive at outrage is still ignorance.

Re: Tesla Paid Zero Federal Income Tax in 2024, Despite $2.3B in Income

#137

Post by boulos »

Kirby64 wrote: post #129
2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this actually happen? With some exceptions, there’s going to be a point where a used car is not worth the trouble to ship it somewhere. And Americans love their huge ass cars. I can’t see many cheaper markets wanting to use an American car, just for the fuel cost alone. I bet the cars get trashed for scrap or parts.

> Does this actually happen? Absolutely it does. If you live near the Mexican border of the US, it’s extremely common to see older cars being towed headed south, presumably to Mexico. It’s not particularly expensive to drive them down to the border. > I bet the cars get trashed for scrap or parts. Only the least valuable and oldest ones that other countries don’t work. That means you’re overall moving up the modernne…

> presumably to Mexico.

Also to Belize and other parts of Central and South America. They don't all stop in Mexico.

Re: Tesla Paid Zero Federal Income Tax in 2024, Despite $2.3B in Income

#138

Post by jefftk »

zelon88 wrote: post #98
gonzobonzo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tax credits seem to make sense for an EV company? That's one of the things that I've found odd. A lot of people that very strongly support things like tax credits for EV cars, in order to fight climate change, will then turn around and talk about how terrible they are when they're actually used, such as in the article here. A lot of times people don't seem to have a consistent view of what they actually want, and w…

In reality, what is more damaging for the environment? Replacing a 2019 Toyota Rav4 with a 2025 Tesla in North America, or..... Replacing a 1985 VW Jetta with a 2019 Toyota Rav4 in India? I see YouTube videos all the time where people in third world countries are using turn of the century hit-and-miss engines to power things like water pumps or machine tools. These countries are leaking countless gallons of oil and f…

> These countries are leaking countless gallons of oil and fuel into the ground using engines and equipment that are over 100 years old

Pre-1925 engines must be a minuscule fraction of all engines in active use, even in poor countries.

Re: Tesla Paid Zero Federal Income Tax in 2024, Despite $2.3B in Income

#139

Post by [deleted] »

hatthew wrote: post #21
SeanAnderson wrote: post #8

I wish this article was written with a less biased tone. I'm genuinely interested in understanding it better. As far as I can tell, the article cites two things: $500M tax savings by using an accelerated depreciation schedule (unclear if they saved $500M more by using accelerated vs a regular depreciation schedule, but I assume no) and they claimed $300M in tax credits. The article doesn't address the other $1.5B, pr…

I think the point of the accelerated depreciation is roughly equivalent to taking a loan with 0% interest. It's allegedly zero-sum with respect to net income . They get to claim this income later, with various benefits, e.g. more cash on hand in the intervening period, inflation makes that "debt" less valuable later, and it's possible that the corporate tax rate will be lower in the future, so the tax rate on "this y…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla Paid Zero Federal Income Tax in 2024, Despite $2.3B in Income

#140

Post by ryandrake »

SideQuark wrote: post #136
ryandrake wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about simply the principle: 1. I should be able to deduct the same sorts of things from my individual income that corporations routinely deduct from their income. If a corporation can legally shield all of their income from taxes, why can't I shield all of my income from taxes? Corporations can deduct the costs of all the things they have to do to make money and do weird depreciation tricks, but I cannot deduct t…

You do. The biggest of all tax giveaways is the home mortgage deduction and tax deduction on employer paid healthcare. The tax sheltered things like retirement accounts, HSAs, Roths, college savings plans, energy credits, home improvement credits, car breaks, annd do on, are also huge tax giveaways to citizens. Those are the biggest tax breaks in all US law, far larger than all of corporate breaks combined. Then, as…

None of these things, or even the combination of all of these things, allows an individual to shield 100% of their income from taxes, the way corporations shield their income from taxes.
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