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A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

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Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speed limit signs set a minimum and a maximum speed, yet I always see drivers careening along on icy roads at the posted maximum. They must have more faith in planners than I do, as I try to determine how icy the road is and go at a safe speed. I don't think financial regulations are any different, but unfortunately most people take the fact that a firm is regulated to mean that it's totally safe. Similarly, many foo…

To be clear: you are suggesting that banks have kept low reserves because they took their government requirements as a sign of what was prudent to lend. Rather than asking their many teams of risk analysts, they made lending decisions based on an arbitrary number set by the government, despite the fact that this level has not been raised or lowered in decades, is uniform across all banks, takes no heed of the current…

Not at all.

In an environment where the government decides what is prudent, there is no incentive for a bank to say "We are sounder than our competitors because we keep more reserves". Why not? Because they would be competing against the government for their definition of soundness.

Sure it could happen theoretically, but it would be a tremendous competitive disadvantage.

The way it is today, any bank that is legally allowed to operate is considered equally sound by borrowers and investors, and banks have no incentive to try to prove to customers that they are actually more sound than their competitors.

In a highly regulated environment, that works for all banks because they know that if there is a major economic downturn everyone will get bailed out.

Notice that all banks were required to accept TARP loans whether they needed them or not. Why? To avoid SIGNALING which banks were hurting and which were not. Why? To avoid capital flowing to the banks that were actually sound!

Why? Well, partly because government wants to avoid a crash, and partly to keep the status quo going strong. Also, consider what all of the major industry players in banking want... what does any firm want? No competition. They were all happy to share a big market and to have as few as possible attributes on which to have to compete for business.

Simple, smart, behaviorally sensible regulations make sense, but the SEC has been notoriously behind the curve for years. The missing piece has been to regulate appropriately while allowing there to be an incentive for banks to actually compete on the basis of soundness. The decision not to let the concept of bank soundness enter the brains of mere citizens must be a knee-jerk reaction to the great depression.

Instead, in exchange for various political concessions, banks were given every incentive to be extremely leveraged. Consider the impact of the GSEs on housing prices, MBS prices, etc? The implicit guarantee of Fannie and Freddie alone probably led to banks thinking (rightly, it turns out) that any housing related crash's impact on banks would be bailed out.

Side note: Are the banks going to be better off after the bailout? Of course they will be. The desired "sweet spot" for most firms is to be in a heavily regulated, heavily protected industry, as it means that there are huge barriers to entry and the profits (though sometimes essentially set by regulators) roll in year after year. See the military industrial complex for an example of the idealized sort of model.

Market forces have been very far from banking for a long time. Why else would financial services be the biggest donors to both parties. Libertarians are not opposed to regulations, just not ones that create perverse incentives and lead to massive bailouts! Any time a firm would rather spend its money on lobbyists and campaign contributions rather than innovation, there is a big problem.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#132
post #8

Social Security taxes are actually a rather large 12.4% of income. (this includes the employer contribution, which is economically part of a worker's compensation.) http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/taxRates.html Worker "contributions" also are immediately spent on unrelated programs (the trust fund is given special government IOUs that are valueless) leaving an unfunded liability in the trillions of dollars. On a cas…

Boomers have already started retiring. The first wave became eligible in 2007. Perhaps you mean the peak?

Right, sorry, 2017 is the year the total paid to retirees is greater than the incoming contributions.

Medicare is already running in the red, by the way.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your example I would add the "Tragedy of the Commons": http://dieoff.org/page95.htm The tragedy of the commons demonstrates that with certain shared resources, when everyone freely pursues their rational self interest not only is utility not maximized, sometimes the result is catastrophic. Libertarian solutions to the tragedy of the commons usually involve attempted parcelization and privatization of existing comm…

Privatization of fishing grounds, in the form of fishing rights distributed by auction, is a widely used means of managing fisheries. It works well when property rights are actually enforced (e.g. a body of water controlled by only one nation).

This makes some sense -- I guess I was thinking mostly of the devastation of fishing stock that has occurred over the last few decades in areas that aren't managed. However, I'd question whether the notion of fishing rights is truly libertarian. It obviously requires a fair amount of government intervention and management, to the extent that the more extreme anarcho-capitalist types would find it unpalatable.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for this. I think that the field of game theory, and as the most simplistic example, the prisoner's dilemma, shows that libertarianism, as defined by the idea that individuals acting in their own self-interest will create the greatest common benefit, is flawed. Specifically, this will limit the benefit of each individual as well as the aggregate. Individuals acting in their own self-interests categorically…

When you cross the street at a traffic light, do you look at the color of the light and immediately propel yourself into the intersection? Or do you take a few seconds to glance from left to right to make sure that there isn't a vehicle careening toward you? My guess is that you double check the government when it comes to your personal safety. So why should anyone believe automatically that just because the SEC exis…

Are you arguing that no seatbelt is better than a paper seatbelt?

Just because the seatbelt is broken, doesn't mean we should abandon seatbelts. It means we should work harder to make better seatbelts.

An argument I see when libertarians are faced with such questions is that libertarians aren't 'against' seatbelts, but they want to explore the alternatives. And yet they don't seem to come up with any other alternatives...

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you cross the street at a traffic light, do you look at the color of the light and immediately propel yourself into the intersection? Or do you take a few seconds to glance from left to right to make sure that there isn't a vehicle careening toward you? My guess is that you double check the government when it comes to your personal safety. So why should anyone believe automatically that just because the SEC exis…

Are you arguing that no seatbelt is better than a paper seatbelt? Just because the seatbelt is broken, doesn't mean we should abandon seatbelts. It means we should work harder to make better seatbelts. An argument I see when libertarians are faced with such questions is that libertarians aren't 'against' seatbelts, but they want to explore the alternatives. And yet they don't seem to come up with any other alternativ…

I'm arguing that a paper seatbelt is a deception. Metaphorically, if you know a car doesn't have a seatbelt you'll drive more cautiously, or possibly have a seatbelt installed that you know works. In other words, you'll use your cognitive faculties to assess the risk and then manage that risk.

What we should not do is idealize the paper seatbelt or pretend that it works when it does not, or pretend that the design of that paper seatbelt hasn't been heavily influenced by corporate lobbyists, corrupt politicians, etc.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for this. I think that the field of game theory, and as the most simplistic example, the prisoner's dilemma, shows that libertarianism, as defined by the idea that individuals acting in their own self-interest will create the greatest common benefit, is flawed. Specifically, this will limit the benefit of each individual as well as the aggregate. Individuals acting in their own self-interests categorically…

To your example I would add the "Tragedy of the Commons": http://dieoff.org/page95.htm The tragedy of the commons demonstrates that with certain shared resources, when everyone freely pursues their rational self interest not only is utility not maximized, sometimes the result is catastrophic. Libertarian solutions to the tragedy of the commons usually involve attempted parcelization and privatization of existing comm…

Parcelization of fishing areas was used by Turkish fisherman of the Anatolian coast, with dramatic improvements in fishery productivity.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but have you ever been driving on an icy road and seen people going the speed limit, 55 miles per hour? The psychology people seem to have is to believe that if the government regulates it, then anything that falls under the regulation requires no independent thought. On the icy road, the safe speed maximum is probably about 30 mph, but many accidents are caused by people going the posted limit, as people seem…

The problem that I have with your examples is that it requires all actors, including consumers, to have nearly perfect information access, and to be able to act on that. In the car example, I think we have a difference of philosophy. I think that regardless of the posted speed limit, some people will not exercise the proper judgement because they have evaluated the conditions differently. In the example of reserve fu…

Why is perfect information required?

If I walk into a bank and consider depositing my hard earned cash, perhaps I'd demand enough transparency to determine whether to trust that entity with my cash, in exactly the same way that I must trust Amazon when I place an order online, etc.

Information will always be imperfect, but it's in both parties' interest to increase transparency. It's barely even a coordination problem in today's world.

As a note to your remark about my speed limit explanation, why is it then that on an extremely icy road people go exactly the posted speed limit rather than, say, 90 miles per hour? Clearly they are taking the sign literally and at face value.

So one regulatory approach that would be an improvement over the current one might be to require a reserves "rating" to be published, much like the smoking causes cancer warning. Perhaps right under the bank's logo it would have to say "This bank has a reserve score of 71 (moderately risky)".

And yes, there would be room for 3rd party ratings to be applied to bank solvency as well. I'm not sure what the best approach would be, but consider that most securities regulations were made in the 20s before the information revolution (ironically, the "Financial Services Modernization Act" removed a few of the depression-era regs that were actually smart and prevented moral hazard and conflict of interest). Surely there would be a lot of clever approaches. One idea that intrigues me is that the government could offer its rating, but banks would be required to obtain several. I'd love to see someone like Michael Moore create his own such agency and use his genius to publicize it.

Analogously, consider the FDA drug approval process. Everyone knows that the FDA process is flawed, as people are routinely killed by side-effects of drugs. So why not have several ratings: One from a consortium of insurers, one from the AMA, and one from the FDA -- each group has a slightly different downside risk (and upside) to approving a dangerous drug or failing to approve a safe one in a timely fashion. Why not have a grid of 3 checkboxes on every drug. The absence of an AMA approval might be a warning sign to some, but not others.

If you think this idea is silly, consider what happens when the FDA gets it wrong and lots of people die because of a drug... exactly nothing but a too-late knee-jerk reaction. Usually the drug is immediately pulled even if it has other valid uses, etc. One perverse example: many doctors knew the dangers of Vioxx well before the scandal (the same risk exists in lesser form with all such drugs, even Ibuprofen) and good ones didn't use it on patients at risk for bleeding without great caution. Yet it took a few years and then bang, it's gone from shelves even though there are a few essentially identical drugs that stayed on the market and do still occasionally kill people when used without caution by docs.

I'm not claiming to have the whole idea of optimal regulation for the 21st century figured out, but I'm just brainstorming. Surely there would be a lot of great and clever ideas. The current, one-size-fits-all approach leads to massive and often ineffectual regulatory apparatus.

Why shouldn't coming up with ad-hoc regulatory / information-dissemination / transparency-reducing systems be something that startups do? Why not in the case of medical trials have data published to the web so that people can make mash-ups with all the data that is being considered by regulators? A few weeks ago the SEC approved a plan to put financials in XML format, but it's all very primitive and is unlikely to be all that useful, but the core idea of transparency through an API is a good one, I think.

The role of the "regulator" of the future, I think, is to design a good API spec (metaphorically and literally) and possibly make a list of all of the watchdog groups offering analysis. State and federal governments could fund their own watchdog groups too -- maybe I notice that Wyoming's prescription-drug watchdog group has been right a bunch of times in a row, so I begin trusting it more than the one in my own state. Maybe I decide to trust Michael Moore's group or Paul Graham's. Over time the best would rise to the top and every mistake would give new groups a chance to enter the limelight -- maybe a YC startup was the only one not to approve Vioxx, for example.

Toward the libertarian goal of efficient, small government, we should be focusing on regulation that increases transparency and also increases the number of entities that can act as private watchdogs. It's exceptionally telling that the SEC received repeated complaints about Madoff's fund from various sources and still did nothing. One might argue that the SEC is understaffed, but it found the staff to shut down prosper.com, a startup that was making humanity better off, on a technicality, not even on any remote accusation of fraud. More likely, prosper.com competed with the established finance powerhouses, so the SEC was probably just acting to keep competition out of the industry.

Most of what all of the regulatory agencies do is coordinate information, and if the modern world (and the internets) have done one thing, it's make such problems extremely easy and inexpensive to solve. My basic argument is that the antiquated structures create a false sense of security and get in the way, as well as soak up tons of industry lobbying dollars to the point where industries tend to become highly regulated and highly protected, the two biggest characteristics of libertarian dystopia. The military industrial complex and now the financial and auto industries are that sort of thing. Big agriculture is too, as well as many others.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#139

As an engineer and an ex-libertarian that managed to (thankfully) outgrow it, I have to say that what you describe isn't actually libertarianism as practised and understood by libertarians at large, but your own personal interpretation of it. Is is actually somewhat close to my current views and I would never call myself a libertarian, nor would libertarians call me one of them. You seem to believe in a weak central…

>As an example, take the health care debate. Compared to some european countries with good healthcare systems, the US spends substantially more (~15% vs ~9% of GDP) covers substantially fewer people (the millions without coverage) and the overall health of the population is poorer. By nearly all objective measures, a good public system is much better than an all-private system and yet, we know this is not compatible with libertarian ideology - you will have to search far and wide to find a libertarian group that supports a public healthcare system.

I haven't been feeling my best lately.[1] I apologize for not supporting my argument, but I believe Chile has a reasonably good healthcare system, where the rich go to the private system and the rest go to the public system.

[1] I just moved to the US from Chile.

Re: A Defense of libertarianism (and response to Zed, etc.)

#140
post #9
post #5

So, I lean libertarian on many things. However, the problem I see with libertarianism is that it posits that people aren't that effected by those around them. Gay sex is fine because it's a personal decision - yeah, I totally agree. Taking on billions in risky loans that cause economic collapse is fine because it's a personal decision - I really disagree. I hate the idea of paternalism and as someone involved in the…

Agreed. Absolutes only exist in theory, whether it's communism or libertarianism. The best we can do is a delicate balancing act.

Balanced by who? Jesus? Greenspan? Paulson? Bush? Obama?
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