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Why OpenAI's $157B valuation misreads AI's future (Oct 2024)

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Re: Why OpenAI's $157B valuation misreads AI's future (Oct 2024)

#131
The OpenAI vs. DeepSeek debate is fascinating... but I think people are oversimplifying both the challenges and the opportunities here.

First, OpenAI’s valuation is a bit wild—$157B on 13.5x forward revenue? That’s Meta/Facebook-level multiples at IPO, and OpenAI’s economics don’t scale the same way. Generative AI costs grow with usage, and compute isn’t getting cheaper fast enough to balance that out. Throw in the $6B+ infrastructure spend for 2025, and yeah, there’s a lot of financial risk. But that said... their growth is still insane. $300M monthly revenue by late 2023? That’s the kind of user adoption that others dream about, even if the profits aren’t there yet.

Now, the “no moat” argument... sure, DeepSeek showed us what’s possible on a budget, but let’s not pretend OpenAI is standing still. These open-source innovations (DeepSeek included) still build on years of foundational work by OpenAI, Google, and Meta. And while open models are narrowing the gap, it’s the ecosystem that wins long-term. Think Linux vs. proprietary Unix. OpenAI is like Microsoft here—if they play it right, they don’t need to have the best models; they need to be the default toolset for businesses and developers. (Also, let’s not forget how hard it is to maintain consistency and reliability at OpenAI’s scale—DeepSeek isn’t running 10M paying users yet.)

That said... I get the doubts. If your competitors can offer “good enough” models for free or dirt cheap, how do you justify charging $44/month (or whatever)? The killer app for AI might not even look like ChatGPT—Cursor, for example, has been far more useful for me at work. OpenAI needs to think beyond just being a platform or consumer product and figure out how to integrate AI into industry workflows in a way that really adds value. Otherwise, someone else will take that pie.

One thing OpenAI could do better? Focus on edge AI or lightweight models. DeepSeek already showed us that efficient, local models can challenge the hyperscaler approach. Why not explore something like “ChatGPT Lite” for mobile devices or edge environments? This could open new markets, especially in areas where high latency or data privacy is a concern.

Finally... the open-source thing. OpenAI’s “open” branding feels increasingly ironic, and it’s creating a trust gap. What if they flipped the script and started contributing more to the open-source ecosystem? It might look counterintuitive, but being seen as a collaborator could soften some of the backlash and even boost adoption indirectly.

OpenAI is still the frontrunner, but the path ahead isn’t clear-cut. They need to address their cost structure, competition from open models, and what comes after ChatGPT. If they don’t adapt quickly, they risk becoming Yahoo in a Google world. But if they pivot smartly—edge AI, better B2B integrations, maybe even some open-source goodwill—they still have the potential to lead this space.

Re: Why OpenAI's $157B valuation misreads AI's future (Oct 2024)

#132

Why do we not value QBASIC in billions? Honestly, we value current Van Gogh paintings in billions. The past cost us more, we got here because of that art fought through decades of litigation. Does progress mean we forget all of that and hope on a promise of easy answers?

Scarcity.

Van Goghs have it; QBASIC doesn't. Anyone can download QBASIC for free.

Re: Why OpenAI's $157B valuation misreads AI's future (Oct 2024)

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote a tested prototype MMO in the last few weekends with AI as my power tools. You're holding it wrong.

I'm VERY interested in your project. Not playing it, I mean more the techniques and tech stack. That sounds entirely out of my reach with an AI, and ive written game engines in c++ before. Networking, synchronisation problems, etc are really really hard. What process did you use with the AIs, any prompting insights - context, agentic prompts etc? What tech stack did you use that you found AIs were familliar enough wi…

I'm using Cursor's composer agent mode with Sonnet 3.5 (I don't use OpenAI on principle, snakes). It does a great job of finding the relevant code without overloading its context window.

I experimented today with Aider (to get R1 involved) and had less success, but it might be that I don't have the workflow down.

I have found cursor can handle a .NET C# back-end using highly standard code structures very well. SignalR for networking.

I've created servers and very basic HTML visualization for three projects - a fairly simple autobattler (took a day), a web-based beat-em-up (2 days), and now a bit more ambitiously my dream RTS-MMO (3rd weekend running).

I started with concise MVP specifications including requirements for future scaling, and from these worked with the AI to make dot point architectural documents. Once we had those down I moved step-by-step, developing elements and tests simultaneously then having the agent automatically run the tests and debug. The test-driven debugging is the part that saved the most frustration, as the initial implementation was almost always broken, but leaving the agent to its own devices (tabbing in and typing "continue" when hitting Cursor's 25 tool call limit, sometimes for hours) the tests guided bug fixing and amazingly it got there fairly consistently, though occasionally it will go off the rails and start modifying the tests to pass or inventing unwanted functionality.

The code is as standard as possible, with the servers all organized identically API -> Application -> Domain I'm a professional game developer but without formal CS/programming training, so I'm aware of my requirements but not always how to implement them cleanly. I understand the code it writes which feels vital when it occasionally rolls a critical miss, but these projects would have taken me months without AI.

Re: Why OpenAI's $157B valuation misreads AI's future (Oct 2024)

#134

"Linux ultimately prevailed-not because it was better from the start, but because it allowed developers to modify the code freely, run it more securely and affordably, and build a broader ecosystem that enabled more capabilities than any closed system" Deepseek followed llama and will be followed by others in the usual mushroom fashion of open source. People really dont appreciate the magnitude of the disruptive forc…

With current generation AI we really need AI + Humans to have good results. It seems likely that the entire LLM branch of products will have this limitation. If that's the case let's race to make the best open source AI as fast as possible, so it can be spread as wide as possible and can be used to fix our shared problems. It's the spreading widely that will lead to breakout results in fields such a cancer research just as much as having the most intelligent system, because humans bring some X factor for creativity/ingenuity/novelty.

Re: Why OpenAI's $157B valuation misreads AI's future (Oct 2024)

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My own app, it's called Telosnex. Unfortunately, the current available version doesn't have the agent stuff yet. Hopefully in a week, realistically two. I had the existing client app I've released-but-not-released-out-loud. Couple days before Christmas, for fun, I spent a couple hours wiring up the Anthropic Model Context Protocol filesystem server example. Within an hour it was clear this was special and I needed to…

> Hopefully in a week, realistically two. Wouldn't it be just a few prompts to get it done?

Scope creep! ;)

Re: Why OpenAI's $157B valuation misreads AI's future (Oct 2024)

#136
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's lose-lose for their valuation regardless. This scenario might if anything be worse for them. Now they have massive sunk capital investments that the second mover might be able to avoid. If the open source models get small enough and high enough quality, the rationale for runing them in the cloud in the first place start to evaporate. How does OpenAI get paid for a use case that can easily be run locally on an iP…

Because they deliver models you cannot run locally on an iPhone, and those are almost always the models you want to run.

Are they though? Are they the ones you want to run "almost always"?

Some of the distilled models we're seeing are very good.

Re: Why OpenAI's $157B valuation misreads AI's future (Oct 2024)

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they deliver models you cannot run locally on an iPhone, and those are almost always the models you want to run.

Are they though? Are they the ones you want to run "almost always"? Some of the distilled models we're seeing are very good.

Very good at what use cases?

Re: Why OpenAI's $157B valuation misreads AI's future (Oct 2024)

#138

DeepSeek has demonstrated that there is no technical moat. Model training costs are plummeting, and the margins for APIs will just get slimmer. Plus model capabilities are plateauing. Once model improvement slows down enough, seems to me like the battle is to be fought in the application layer. Whoever can make the killer app will capture the market.

Can you unpack why you think there'll be defensible moats at the application layer? (I thought you had this exactly right when I read it, but I kept noodling it while I brushed my teeth and now I'm not so sure llms won't just prove hard to build durable margins at meaningful volume on?)

I agree that the moats are weak for applications, but I think there are possible strategies to capture users. One way is to make it difficult to switch, similar to Apple Music vs Spotify or iPhone vs Android. Although these platforms offer very similar features, switching has high friction. As an example, I can imagine an AI app that has been adapted to your use cases, maybe it has a lot of useful information stored about you and your projects which makes it much more effective, and switching to some other app would mean you have to move all this data or possibly start over from zero.
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