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Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

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Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#131

Post by andrewaylett »

UseofWeapons1 wrote: post #39
munchler wrote: post #11

> I captured two drivers ripping through red lights in that short span Video actually shows two cars entering the intersection on yellow lights, which is legal. The rest of the article seems similarly exaggerated. ---- Edit: For those who disagree, please be aware that the stop lines are out of frame, so both cars are already in the intersection before they're visible on the video. You can get a better picture of wha…

I had to look this up. In California in particular, this is true, which surprised me. Per a random law firm: California’s yellow light law permits drivers to enter an intersection during a yellow light. No violation exists unless any part of the car is over the stopping line when the light turns red. However, the law encourages drivers to slow down before reaching the intersection. Whereas in, for example, Massachuse…

In the UK, if you're at all over the line when the lights change, you're considered "in the junction" and are expected to leave the junction -- the next phase should give you priority to do so. The only way to run a red light is to start crossing the line while the light is red -- although plenty of drivers will start to inch across while they're supposed to be waiting :P.

The most annoying scenario is where a driver has either stopped or inched forwards far enough that they can't actually see the lights any more and don't know when they've changed.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#132

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

the__alchemist wrote: post #109
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both may be legal, but the first one is unclear and is definitely unsafe. Safety requirements dictate a slightly different understanding of yellow light than is commonly used by drivers. For safety, yellow must mean "begin controlled deceleration immediately". The first driver had plenty of time on yellow to not be just barely entering the intersection on red. They clearly were not decelerating and had very likely sp…

> yellow must mean "begin controlled deceleration immediately" This is not true in the strong form you used. There is a regime where there is no possibility you will be able to stop the vehicle in time using reasonable deceleration. Slowing does no good. There is also a regime where slowing will cause you to enter the intersection during the red light, and not decelerating will not.

That's ok. We can hammer out the details together, but the principle is true if the light turns yellow before you reach the intersection. Note that I didn't say how rapidly you need to be decelerating, and if the light has turned red before the car even clears the crosswalk, as is the case for the first car, then the driver sped up instead of slowing down.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#133

Post by crackercrews »

DHPersonal wrote: post #30
munchler wrote: post #11

> I captured two drivers ripping through red lights in that short span Video actually shows two cars entering the intersection on yellow lights, which is legal. The rest of the article seems similarly exaggerated. ---- Edit: For those who disagree, please be aware that the stop lines are out of frame, so both cars are already in the intersection before they're visible on the video. You can get a better picture of wha…

I disagree. The first car doesn't even cross their side of the pedestrian crossing before the red light blinks on, so they have had ample time to prepare to stop and are running a red light. The second car is more debatable but also had enough time to stop, as the light turns red while they are still in the middle of the intersection.

The second car definitely entered on yellow. It doesn't matter if they could have stopped. They have the right to enter on yellow.

The first car passed the first line when the light was yellow, but not the second line. The area in between is the crosswalk. I can't tell if "enter the intersection" means "enter any part of the area past the line where you're supposed to stop" or "enter the part past the crosswalk, where the roads actually intersect".

Does anyone know what the rule is?

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#134

Post by unethical_ban »

potato3732842 wrote: post #25

As a pedestrian I will take a busy light controlled intersection with a pedestrian scramble type walk signal over a busy 4-way stop where every single time. With the 4-way stop there is never a time in the cycle when all traffic is stopped. The drivers who are present are continuously paying attention to what other drivers are doing which robs them of situational awareness to note pedestrians. You can try and time it…

A stat of how many injuries occurred at this intersection would help settle your point. You're talking a lot of theory, where this person seems to have lived and traversed this intersection many times without incident.

Was the upgrade worth $600,000 in this town, this street? And why, if it is a small town with heavy pedestrian traffic, does it default to vehicular movement instead of pedestrian movement?

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#135

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

inetknght wrote: post #57
1970-01-01 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. They expect safe walking and biking infra to fall from the sky and complain online when it does not.

Pedestrians rightfully expect safe walking and biking infrastructure. Not everyone can drive. Most of those who can't drive also cannot afford a taxi or rideshare. Many of them also do not have friends or family who can get them where they need to go, and reliance on others is extremely demoralizing to independence. That says nothing of the carbon cost in fuel, the microparticle cost in tire and brake dust, or other…

> Not everyone can drive

Not everyone can afford to live in an area of the city where they don't have to drive places, either.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#136

Post by prasadjoglekar »

Ithildin wrote: post #116

Aside from the debate, 600k seems insanely high for this intersection. No wonder this country's infrastructure is crumbling when it takes over half a million dollars to put in a few lights.

This sort of work usually costs 3x what is should, because the firm doing the work has to pay state minimum wage and/or hire union labor.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#137

Post by ajmurmann »

CalRobert wrote: post #75
ajmurmann wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends how far you are away from the light when it turns.

And, of course, your speed.

Clearly both are a factor but you don't need both. Even if I go 20mph I have to slam on the breaks hard if the light turns when I'm just three ft away. The only way around this is to treat every light like a stop sign where you do a California roll

Edit: As a related pet peeve I've never understood why we don't have countdowns for car traffic lights like we do for pedestrians. These IMO would not only increase safety but also fuel savings (especially if we had them for each signal change) as I could time my arrival at the traffic light to minimize braking and acceleration.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#138

Post by itishappy »

potato3732842 wrote: post #99
itishappy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With the 4-way stop there is never a time when all traffic is stopped and the drivers are always paying attention to what other drivers are doing. With the walk signal there is a brief moment in time when the drivers are doing nothing but waiting for you and are all stopped so you as a pedestrian can account for them in preparation just before you get your signal and make your move. That's... not true? With light t…

>That's... not true? With light traffic a 4 way stop should have no cars at all at it most of the time, leaving pedestrians with the right of way, whereas with a traffic light there will always be a road with priority until a pedestrian hits the button. Requiring cars to pay attention to the condition of the intersection is the explicit design goal. >This was laid out very clearly in the article we just read. This is…

> ... the situational awareness of every driver who's about to get their turn is mostly absorbed in monitoring who's turn it is and who's going where.

Right, that's the intent. Drivers paying attention to their surroundings is the goal.

> So if you're a pedestrian and you don't time it right you could find yourself starting to cross right before someone wants to drive where you're crossing. Usually this is because you started walking before it was their turn...

You have the right of way!

> There's just so much less potential for conflict if there is a scheduled time when all the cars stop and then the walking happens.

How about a system where all cars are expected to stop all the time?

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#139

Post by afhsrtjwrtj »

throwway120385 wrote: post #74
potato3732842 wrote: post #25

As a pedestrian I will take a busy light controlled intersection with a pedestrian scramble type walk signal over a busy 4-way stop where every single time. With the 4-way stop there is never a time in the cycle when all traffic is stopped. The drivers who are present are continuously paying attention to what other drivers are doing which robs them of situational awareness to note pedestrians. You can try and time it…

> With the walk signal there is a brief moment in time when the drivers are doing nothing but waiting for you and are all stopped so you as a pedestrian can account for them in preparation just before you get your signal and make your move. Having almost been hit a few times by drivers making a right turn on red, I can tell you the drivers never wait even if you have the right of way. You'll be lucky if they even loo…

Why is right-on-red always cited as the biggest problem with turns? My anecdotal experience is that drivers turning on green are way more likely to hit me when I have a walk signal on the cross-street than drivers who turn right on red.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#140

Post by avgDev »

runako wrote: post #121
avgDev wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is another line before. We don't really see the entire intersection.

Yes, you are correct. That's why I specifically did not address the car's entry into the intersection. Given the red light, is the car in a legal position in the freeze frame?

Yes. I do not understand why this is so misunderstood in the comments.

This picture is LEGAL in most US states as long as the car entered the intersection ON A GREEN OR YELLOW light.

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