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World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

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Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#131

Post by rexarex »

dheera wrote: post #21

I did a bunch of astrophotography in the Atacama desert last year, it was an absolutely phenomenal place. There are a lot of celestial objects you cannot image from the northern hemisphere and there aren't many other places in the southern hemisphere with weather conditions that good (maybe Namibia but it doesn't have the altitude advantage). The only thing I wish is that some of the parks would be open after dark to…

I think there’s ways to get out there at night. I know people host ‘clandestinos’ aka parties out there.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#132

Post by post-it »

Galaxeblaffer wrote: post #119
bobthepanda wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen/syngas right now is the only way forward for long distance sea or plane travel, since batteries are too heavy.

hydrogen definitely not the only way for long distance sea, nuclear would just make so much more sense. and for place travel it also such the same as batteries, first of all its an explosive gas and second we only get less than 20%. hydrogen is just not a good solution to anything other than being a byproduct in the natural gas industry.

Nuclear would not make sense at all for long distance sea travel. Naval reactors require highly enriched fuel in order to be compact enough, so they could never be widespread on civilian ships for fear of proliferation. They're also extraordinarily expensive and require a specialized crew, and their power output is overkill for a cargo ship (but they can't really be scaled down much further).

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#133

Post by kurthr »

topspin wrote: post #80

I'm noticing that the reporting on this, including the ESO press release, is vague on exactly what this "industrial megaproject" happens to be. Ordinarily, there is no hesitation to disclose this, unless it's a military matter. Or a sacred cow. A sacred cow, indeed. It's a green energy operation powered by both wind and solar to generate hydrogen, electricity and ammonia. Here[1] is the AES Andes press release about…

To be fair, green hydrogen in a fossil fuel shill talking point (so that they can sell more blue/grey). Hydrogen shipping and end-end efficiency are terrible. Make ammonia instead, if you're into that sort of thing.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#134

Post by liamwire »

55555 wrote: post #93
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've experienced that once in a simulated environment; there's a museum in Nijmegen that has an indoor setup to simulate being completely blind, you get a stick and a guide and have to navigate a living room and the like. Can recommend if you're interested in accessibility and the like!

There's a similar experience at Tochoji Temple in Fukuoka city.

Highly recommend the experience, it was darkness unlike anything I’d ever seen before. Excuse the phrasing.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#135

Post by lukan »

IncreasePosts wrote: post #117
psychlops wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought space was the the world's prime telescope site.

Not really, due to the costs and constraints of space-based telescopes

But I could always tell if a space picture is from Hubble, or some lowly earth based one. In other words, with the fallen costs on rocket launchs, I do hope for a ton of new space telescopes.

Till then we have to balance things out. Space research is important. But so is investment in green technlogy as climate change is speeding up. It is not specially mentioned - but I believe the project is basically about transforming sunlight into liquid fuels on scale. Not the worst industry project by itself. (even though it might mainly exist, to greenwash conventional cars)

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#136

Post by sva_ »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #105
kbolino wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may feel that way, but that seems emotional rather than rational. The choices for small-scale energy sources are: batteries with all their dirty mining, biofuels taking away lots of arable land from food/textile/etc production, or fuel cells which can still involve petrochemicals (but don't have to). There are no perfect options, and strapping enough solar panels or wind turbines to a vehicle (car, bus, train, a…

The dirty mining and manufacturing of batteries is the dumbest red herring there is. It's like saying we need to get rid of toilet paper because it cuts down so many trees. Hydrogen on the other hand clearly is pushed by fossil fuels since it leaves the door open for them to be a major player.

> It's like saying we need to get rid of toilet paper because it cuts down so many trees.

Better not to trigger the bidet crowd.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#137

Post by vasco »

senorrib wrote: post #77

Definitely a hard choice between an industrial complex generating thousands of jobs and a glorified camera.

Exactly, this sounds like when europeans and americans go to africa to keep the local people from using their resources under the guise of protecting wildlife. There's plenty of local sources about it but a documentary that does a great job for a foreign audience and really made me think is 'Black Mambas' https://www.imdb.com/title/tt18351318/

If us Europeans and Americans want to look at the sky undisturbed, why don't we build telescopes at home? We can expropriate or block businesses in however big of a radius we want. Or we can buy up all the land around the site we are using in a foreign country instead of keeping the development of the land of the local people. It feels like exploitation.

It's easy to make this about science vs business and I hate light pollution just as the next guy, but it feels gross to shame the local population for wanting to do what we've done with our land already when we can do it at home as well, or pay them to be worth their while to not develop around the site. They should not have to keep their country pristine just because we want to be "pure" with other people's home when we're not with our own. Or pay them enough if it's so important (it is).

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#138

Post by topspin »

kurthr wrote: post #133
topspin wrote: post #80

I'm noticing that the reporting on this, including the ESO press release, is vague on exactly what this "industrial megaproject" happens to be. Ordinarily, there is no hesitation to disclose this, unless it's a military matter. Or a sacred cow. A sacred cow, indeed. It's a green energy operation powered by both wind and solar to generate hydrogen, electricity and ammonia. Here[1] is the AES Andes press release about…

To be fair, green hydrogen in a fossil fuel shill talking point (so that they can sell more blue/grey). Hydrogen shipping and end-end efficiency are terrible. Make ammonia instead, if you're into that sort of thing.

> green hydrogen in a fossil fuel shill talking point

I'll stipulate that. None if this is my sacred cow.

Apparently, however, your view isn't operative among establishment Powers That Be. Otherwise "they" wouldn't hesitate to name it, and instead employ euphemisms like "huge industrial complex" and "industrial megaproject." If this were some evil, no good, very bad mining operation or gas and oil field, it would be featured prominently in all of the reporting. And you know it.

Instead, we get euphemisms. One report I read about this specific matter used the term "electrical generation units." A coal plant? Nat gas? Nuclear? No. If it were any of those things "they" would say so, in clear, bright terms everyone would be eager to hate on. But it's wind and solar, so "they" carefully demur, and straightforward terms like "solar panels" an "wind turbines" are deliberately avoided.

It's not any sort of conspiracy, mind you. Everyone just somehow knows that wind, solar, hydrogen, whatever, is sacred and must be spoken of with only the greatest deference, adopting however much linguistic gymnastics seems necessary.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#139

Post by topspin »

fsh wrote: post #98
topspin wrote: post #80

I'm noticing that the reporting on this, including the ESO press release, is vague on exactly what this "industrial megaproject" happens to be. Ordinarily, there is no hesitation to disclose this, unless it's a military matter. Or a sacred cow. A sacred cow, indeed. It's a green energy operation powered by both wind and solar to generate hydrogen, electricity and ammonia. Here[1] is the AES Andes press release about…

I doubt that "land use" is a big issue in one of the least densely populated countries on earth. Surely one could find a place for an industrial site that is not within 5 km of the world's prime telescope site. Using the existing infrastructure probably makes it slightly cheaper though.

> I doubt that "land use" is a big issue in one of the least densely populated countries on earth.

All evidence to the contrary, apparently.

One report I found cited "50 km" as sufficient separation. Applying this as a radius you get 7854 square kilometers of land.

> Using the existing infrastructure probably makes it slightly cheaper though.

"it", here, could mean either the "green energy" operation or the observatory site.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#140

Post by kurthr »

topspin wrote: post #138
kurthr wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, green hydrogen in a fossil fuel shill talking point (so that they can sell more blue/grey). Hydrogen shipping and end-end efficiency are terrible. Make ammonia instead, if you're into that sort of thing.

> green hydrogen in a fossil fuel shill talking point I'll stipulate that. None if this is my sacred cow. Apparently, however, your view isn't operative among establishment Powers That Be. Otherwise "they" wouldn't hesitate to name it, and instead employ euphemisms like "huge industrial complex" and "industrial megaproject." If this were some evil, no good, very bad mining operation or gas and oil field, it would be…

I can really understand. It's quite clever marketing and non-experts (media and politicians) are quite easily drawn in. Then of course, they can't admit they're wrong so they'll build a multi $B boondoggle with little to show at the end.

And maybe they'll destroy the dark skies while they're at it. Lot's of horrible outcomes are just stupid mistakes that profit no one. If they CAN discredit solar for a while longer then more money for them.

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