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The Aging Programmer [video]

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Re: The Aging Programmer [video]

#131

Post by troyvit »

tonymet wrote: post #102
troyvit wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you skim the transcript you'll see stuff like this: > [...] a big part of what I want to talk about is things you can do in your 20s in your 30s in your 40s in your 50s that lead towards you being able to do what you want which could be nothing or could be programming in your 60s in your 70s uh in your 80s [...] Further in she says: > it's really astonishing the minute you have proof, visual proof to strangers tha…

physical appearance is one of the most informative indicators of health.

Physical appearance is also an informative indicator of age. Care to expand on what you think a 63 year old woman is supposed to look like? Any examples from Hollywood or Greek mythology that match what you're looking for here?

Re: The Aging Programmer [video]

#132

Post by text0404 »

theultdev wrote: post #76
philk10 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeh, the poor neighborhoods are full of grocery stores with fresh food and not food deserts AMA any better as a source? https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/how-use-bmi-fet...

yes even the poor have grocery stores. and no, that's a terrible article as well. feel free to pick out the strongest point you think the article has and present it. dumping links is not a conversation.

here's a wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert

this is a long-studied area with real and verifiable research. the "grocery stores" you're thinking of are liquor/corner stores, which are not adequate substitutes.

Re: The Aging Programmer [video]

#133

Post by kazinator »

9rx wrote: post #87
mikestew wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programmers are much more likely than the general population to have hyper-mobility Boy, that one comes with a whole lot of [citation needed] .

Why is citation needed? Elaboration may be warranted, but if you do not have the trust in the parent to provide that elaboration under his own creation, why engage with him at all? To only be willing to speak to him if he relays quotes from someone else is quite unusual, if not anti-social. If you would rather speak to that someone else who you deem a suitable authority, why not speak to that other person instead? Wh…

> To only be willing to speak to him if he relays quotes from someone else is quite unusual

True, but extraordinary claims do call for some reference.

Asking for references is doesn't ipso facto show an unwillingness to speak.

The one making the claim can be reasonably expected to have more ready access to the sources of information than the one newly surprised by the claim, having already done some of the homework. (Perhaps extensively!)

Re: The Aging Programmer [video]

#134

Post by slyall »

9rx wrote: post #123
cipheredStones wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you just arrive from Mars to judge our discourse norms? It's completely typical to expect someone who makes a surprising factual claim to back it up with evidence. You're talking to them because you think they might know something you don't, and be able to point to how they know it - or they might not, and them offering weak or non-existent evidence would show that.

> It's completely typical to expect someone who makes a surprising factual claim to back it up with evidence. A citation does not necessarily provide evidence, it only guarantees the words of a third-party. A third-party can spout complete nonsense as well as anyone else. The request ultimately serves to appeal to a flawed assumption that a third-party's words are more valuable than the words of who you are speaking…

Just an hour ago read somebody say that the California fires were caused by a combination of 5G and coronal mass ejections.

At the time I dismissed his words is not being supported by scientists or other authorities but in future I will remember your wisdom that it is "a flawed assumption that a third-party's words are more valuable than the words of who you are speaking to."

Re: The Aging Programmer [video]

#135

Post by kazinator »

9rx wrote: post #123
cipheredStones wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you just arrive from Mars to judge our discourse norms? It's completely typical to expect someone who makes a surprising factual claim to back it up with evidence. You're talking to them because you think they might know something you don't, and be able to point to how they know it - or they might not, and them offering weak or non-existent evidence would show that.

> It's completely typical to expect someone who makes a surprising factual claim to back it up with evidence. A citation does not necessarily provide evidence, it only guarantees the words of a third-party. A third-party can spout complete nonsense as well as anyone else. The request ultimately serves to appeal to a flawed assumption that a third-party's words are more valuable than the words of who you are speaking…

> Which also incorrectly assumes there is someone else's words to even draw from.

The claim in question is that there is a prevalence of hyper-mobility among programmers.

That can only be backed by data. Data gathered from a large number of people. Even if we suppose that the claim is the result of a solo research effort --- one person did all the data gathering and analysis --- and that that solo researcher is the very person making the comment on hacker news, there are still other words that can be referenced. They are not another person's words, but that same researcher's words hosted elsewhere, giving interesting details about the research!!!

The comment, whether we believe it or not, simply contains insufficient detail to someone interested.

Don't you understand?

Indeed, it's as if you came from space to dictate alien discourse protocols to humans.

Re: The Aging Programmer [video]

#136

Post by daxfohl »

daxfohl wrote: post #128
basfo wrote: post #56

I don't see a problem with my programming skills, but with my ability to play the corporate game. Probably because i have a lot of experience, i kind of know when a manager wants to push a team too much because he wants to play some game of thrones with another manager. I know when they decide to ignore all warnings to get to a deadline, and then when everything explodes they blame someone else. I know when someone h…

Yup, or EM pitches the big five year vision rearchitecture because that's what builds their empire, even though a cron job that takes a couple days to write would solve the business need.

And you know that you'll come back in five years and nothing will have changed, except five new services that do half of what the vision required, most systems still depend on what was originally there, the team has tripled in size and most of them are just there to maintain the workarounds of the half-implemented systems, latency, cost, storage, and bug count are all way up, and no new functionality has been built that the original cron job couldn't have handled.

Re: The Aging Programmer [video]

#137

Post by tonymet »

troyvit wrote: post #131
tonymet wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

physical appearance is one of the most informative indicators of health.

Physical appearance is also an informative indicator of age. Care to expand on what you think a 63 year old woman is supposed to look like? Any examples from Hollywood or Greek mythology that match what you're looking for here?

We all know what a healthy person looks like from toddler's age. It takes mental gymnastics to argue otherwise. The fact that we can only think of a couple examples of obviously fit folks who had health problems, like the other chap tried to do, is an exception that proves the rule.

Do yourself a favor and try to break away from the overly legislative mindset. Meaning is not bounded by words and definitions. The things that matter -- like true love, peace, happiness, health, contentment, and more-- are not bounded by rules and definitions. We all know those things when we see them.

If someone presents themselves as an authority on health issues and how to cope with them, they should obviously be healthy.

Re: The Aging Programmer [video]

#138

Post by 9rx »

slyall wrote: post #134
9rx wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's completely typical to expect someone who makes a surprising factual claim to back it up with evidence. A citation does not necessarily provide evidence, it only guarantees the words of a third-party. A third-party can spout complete nonsense as well as anyone else. The request ultimately serves to appeal to a flawed assumption that a third-party's words are more valuable than the words of who you are speaking…

Just an hour ago read somebody say that the California fires were caused by a combination of 5G and coronal mass ejections. At the time I dismissed his words is not being supported by scientists or other authorities but in future I will remember your wisdom that it is "a flawed assumption that a third-party's words are more valuable than the words of who you are speaking to."

> "I dismissed his words" ... "you are speaking to"

Which is it? Did you dismiss him or did you speak to him? If you dismissed him as you claim, the quote, even ignoring how it is taken out of context, doesn't work. It explicitly refers to where there is an exchange happening.

Re: The Aging Programmer [video]

#139

Post by cloverich »

philk10 wrote: post #73
theultdev wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's in the title, but that article lists no reasons why it's racist. They try to relate it to socioeconomic status, but BMI is applied to poor white people as well. I don't buy that reasoning on face value though, it's perfectly affordable to eat healthy. These days fast food and processed foods are much more expensive than buying fresh groceries. Just a trash article trying to normalize obesity and race-bait.

yeh, the poor neighborhoods are full of grocery stores with fresh food and not food deserts AMA any better as a source? https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/how-use-bmi-fet...

> "food deserts", low-income census tracts that are more than one mile from a supermarket in urban or suburban areas and more than 10 miles from a supermarket in rural areas.

One mile. That's absurdly narrow. They are tailoring the definitions to meet the resultant behavior. You can grocery shop once every two weeks or less and be healthier than the average American by eating some of the cheapest possible foods, such as rice, beans, and cabbage, carrots, pasta... as an upper income individual I feed my kids this stuff all the time, its dirt cheap and they (we) are happy to eat it. There's serious problems to be dealt with in the US with respect to lower income support, but IMHO food related ones are mostly cultural / educational, not "lives 2 miles from super market, impossible to eat healthy now".

Re: The Aging Programmer [video]

#140

Post by 9rx »

kazinator wrote: post #135
9rx wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's completely typical to expect someone who makes a surprising factual claim to back it up with evidence. A citation does not necessarily provide evidence, it only guarantees the words of a third-party. A third-party can spout complete nonsense as well as anyone else. The request ultimately serves to appeal to a flawed assumption that a third-party's words are more valuable than the words of who you are speaking…

> Which also incorrectly assumes there is someone else's words to even draw from. The claim in question is that there is a prevalence of hyper-mobility among programmers. That can only be backed by data. Data gathered from a large number of people. Even if we suppose that the claim is the result of a solo research effort --- one person did all the data gathering and analysis --- and that that solo researcher is the v…

> That can only be backed by data.

Okay. But the request was for citation, not data around mobility. A request for the latter would at least carry something, albeit unless you are an expert yourself you likely won't be able to take much from it, but that is not what was requested. Still, I posit that elaboration is the better approach. If the person is, in fact, an expert in the subject they may have better ways of broaching the subject with you than dumping raws value upon you. And if dumping raw data is truly the best they can offer, that is still apt to be where they end up in their elaboration anyway, so in the worst case you haven't lost anything. Demanding that you know the best way to continue the conversation when it is you without the requisite knowledge seems foolhardy.

> there are still other words that can be referenced

Why reference when he can reiterate his own words, if there is merit in retelling what he has already told before? HN is not a Wiki trying to index historical knowledge, it is decidedly a link aggregator combined with discussion forum, with the latter being the feature that is relevant to the context. Further, this seems to imply that you don't trust the words on HN, but if that is the case why bother with HN at all? There is no utility if nothing can be taken from the words posted here.

> Indeed, it's as if you came from space to dictate alien discourse protocols to humans.

I have never seen this behaviour outside of Reddit (and where Reddit memes have leaked into HN). Humans having a discussion usually talk to each other in the present, not go back and forth pointing to quotes written in the past and likely written by a third-party. Even from my alien vantage point I recognize that as something humans would find strange. What makes you think it is human protocol?

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