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Extracting AI models from mobile apps

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Re: Extracting AI models from mobile apps

#131

Post by groby_b »

crazygringo wrote: post #95
cmiles74 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how this is a double standard. Comparing a person interacting with their culture is not comparable in any way. IMHO, it's kind of a wacky argument to make.

Can you elaborate on how it's not comparable? It seems obvious to me that it is -- they both learn and then create -- so what's the difference? If I can hire an employee who draws on knowledge they learned from copyrighted textbooks, why can't I hire an AI which draws on knowledge it learned from copyrighted textbooks? What makes that argument "wacky" in your eyes?

Unless you are making an argument for personhood, one is a machine, the other is a human. Different standards apply, end of discussion.

Re: Extracting AI models from mobile apps

#133

Post by Mordisquitos »

drdeca wrote: post #113
Mordisquitos wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the resulting AI models are protected by copyright that invalidates the claim that AI models being trained on copyrighted materials is fair-use analogous to human beings becoming educated by exposure to copyrighted materials. Educated human beings are not protected by copyright, hence neither should trained AI models. Conversely, if a copyrightable work is produced based on work which itself is copyrighted, the re…

If I take 1000 books and count the distributions of the lengths of the words, and the covariance between the lengths of one word and the next word for each book, and how much this covariance matrix tends to vary across the different books, and other things like this, and publish these summaries, it seems fairly clear to me that this should count as fair use. (Such a model/statistical-summary, along with a dictionary,…

> suppose there is a method of producing a data artifact which would be genuinely (and economically) useful, and which does not rely on taking in any copyrighted input, [...] It seems like it would make sense to want it to be economically incentivized to create such data artifacts of higher sizes [...] But maybe copyright isn’t the best way to do that? Idk.

Exactly. It would be patents, not copyright.

Re: Extracting AI models from mobile apps

#134

Post by homarp »

crazygringo wrote: post #95
cmiles74 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how this is a double standard. Comparing a person interacting with their culture is not comparable in any way. IMHO, it's kind of a wacky argument to make.

Can you elaborate on how it's not comparable? It seems obvious to me that it is -- they both learn and then create -- so what's the difference? If I can hire an employee who draws on knowledge they learned from copyrighted textbooks, why can't I hire an AI which draws on knowledge it learned from copyrighted textbooks? What makes that argument "wacky" in your eyes?

most probably your employee actually 'paid' for their textbook.

Re: Extracting AI models from mobile apps

#135

Post by philwelch »

dijksterhuis wrote: post #125
philwelch wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you’re missing the point of copyright. The point of copyright is to protect an exclusive right to copy, not the right to produce original works influenced by previous works. If an LLM produces original works that are influenced by the training data, that is not a violation of copyright. If it reproduces the training data verbatim, it is.

i weirdly agree with you, but also want to point out that “influenced by the training data” is doing some very heavy lifting there. exactly how the new work is created is important when it comes to derivative works. does it use a copy of the original work to create it, or a vague idea/memory of the original work’s composition? when i make music it’s usually vague memories. i’d argue that LLMs have an encoded represen…

I don’t really think it matters because you can just compare the output to the input and apply the same standard, treating the process between the two as a black box.

Re: Extracting AI models from mobile apps

#136

Post by o11c »

bayindirh wrote: post #123
o11c wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Making money" does not immediately invalidate fair use, but it does wave a big red flag in the courts' faces.

So you say that, every law is a suggestion depending who's being tried?

Er, what? I'm speaking directly from the law, 17 U.S.C. § 107. It's deliberately written in terms of "factors to consider", rather than absolutes.

> In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

> * the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

> * the nature of the copyrighted work;

> * the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

> * the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

Re: Extracting AI models from mobile apps

#137

Post by Isamu »

timewizard wrote: post #116
Workaccount2 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs are not massive archives of data. They are a tiny fraction of a fraction of a percent of the size of their training set. And before you knee-jerk "it's a compression algo!", I invite you to archive all your data with an LLMs "compression algo".

> LLMs are not massive archives of data. Neither am I, yet, I am still capable of reproducing copyrighted works to a level that most would describe as illegal. > And before you knee-jerk "it's a compression algo!" It's literally a fundamental part of the technology so I can't see how you call it a "knee jerk." It's lossy compression, the same way a JPEG might be, and simply recompressing your picture to a lower resol…

> It's lossy compression, the same way a JPEG might be

Compression yes, but this is co-mingling as well. The entire corpus is compressed together, which identifies common patterns, and in the model they are essentially now overlapping.

The original document is represented statistically in the final model, but you’ve lost the ability to extract it closely. Instead you gain the ability to generate something statistically similar to a large number of original documents that are related or are structurally similar.

I’m just commenting, not disputing any argument about fair use.

Re: Extracting AI models from mobile apps

#139

Post by jazzyjackson »

rusk wrote: post #75
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you mean that you might be able to decrypt a copyrighted work because you used that same encryption method on a non-copyrighted work, then definitely not. The work under protection will be considered. (Otherwise, I am unsure what you meant.)

From what I recall, it was the actual protection method that was protected by DMCA - when DVD protection was cracked it was forbidden to distribute a particular section of code so they just printed it on a Tee-shirt to troll the powers that be.

Better yet just print the colors that represent the number, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number

But then again, knowing the number is a far cry from using that number to circumvent DRM

Re: Extracting AI models from mobile apps

#140

Post by DoctorOetker »

jonpo wrote: post #16

Well done you seem to have liberated an open model trained on open data for blind and visually impaired people. Paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2204.03738 Code: https://github.com/microsoft/banknote-net Training data: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/microsoft/banknote-net/ref... model: https://github.com/microsoft/banknote-net/blob/main/models/b... Kinda easier to download it straight from github. Its licenced under M…

Don't you think its intentional, so as not to demonstrate the technique on potentially copyrighted data?
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