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Egoless Engineering

egoless.engineering

131–140 of 309 posts

Re: Egoless Engineering

#131
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Such is our baseline mammalian heritage, which we must each overcome with deliberate spiritual self-evolution. Personally I don't see it through such an individualist lens— I think this is a collective issue that can't possibly rely on an individual's "spiritual awakening". As such, I think the bigger issue is that (in some cultures more and some less) people are actively encouraged to compete and feed their ego. A…

Well, the higher-ups (in all organizations) do, indeed, have a greater cultural influence on the group's ideals, attitudes, and behaviors. The especially problematic aspect of this is that we often reward the least compassionate with greater responsibility. That is backward thinking from backward-facing people. If a person wants more power so they can enjoy such "fruits" (more money, control over other people, more p…

> What we are witnessing across the Earth's societies is nothing less than the apotheosis of the masses' majorities exercising their free will to choose ignorance over wisdom

There is a mismatch between your observations about humans as a whole, and the appeal to individuals and their individual values.

I am all for individual ethics, but half the people on the planet could have great ethics, and things could still devolve.

The way to scalable net-positive gains starts with oneself, but also requires finding ways to pull others into net-positive arrangements, in a way that generates value back to you. Then repeat on larger scales.

If a fraction of the planet worked hard from that standpoint, things would improve markedly. Even a lot of failures and a few successes would make a lot of positive difference.

Applying game theory, psychology and local conditions toward scaling up positive sum games, is another form of engineering.

Perhaps the highest form.

Re: Egoless Engineering

#132
post #43
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently, I was thinking plenty about trust within organizations, and it resonated with me too. I've worked at a few startups and have seen high-trust environments lead to a lot of productivity, comfort and success— and the opposite for low-trust startups. In general, I think startups tend to lean towards high-trust, especially when they're small and early, but I was part of a 15-person one that was quite the opposit…

Yeah, I think there's almost always a point where a company decides they need to stop generally trusting their employees. Then all the trustworthy ones start getting more and more frustrated, or just start checking out. Agreed that most startups lean towards trust. Need to keep that going as long as possible, and stay away from hiring managers who think their primary job is "protecting" the company from anyone who mi…

> there's almost always a point where a company decides they need to stop generally trusting their employees

I recall exactly when this happened at Facebook.

Re: Egoless Engineering

#133
post #3

Really resonated with this, reminded me of the journey I went on over the course of my dev career. By the end, my advice for every manager was roughly: * Don't add process just for the sake of it. Only add it if seriously needed. * Require ownership all the way to prod and beyond, no matter the role. (Turns out people tend to really like that.) * Stop making reactive decisions. If something bad happened on a total, e…

> Require ownership all the way to prod and beyond, no matter the role. (Turns out people tend to really like that.) Depends on what you mean. Individual ownership over code/feature/module/etc would seem to run counter to the article - it's just another fiefdom. Collective ownership? Sure.

I think the right balance here is to have ownership of the outcome rather than the thing. E.g. you have ownership of making sure the feature you’re working on makes it to production and works properly

With that ownership comes there responsibility and accountability of making sure it happens. The level of responsibility and autonomy that comes with that is what I’ve found people react positively to

Re: Egoless Engineering

#134

An ageless idea... "There once was the first software engineering best-selling book. It was called The Psychology of Computer Programming (Weinberg 1971). There was a peculiar idea contained among the many excellent ideas of that book. It was the idea that the task of programming should be egoless. Programmers, the author said, should not invest their ego in the product they were building. ... What’s the alternative…

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Re: Egoless Engineering

#135

The success of any organization depends upon each member behaving selflessly to meet the needs of the group. Selfishness in any organization is a parasitic drain on energy and productivity. Embracing compassion for all those who drift into our orbit is the only way to improve oneself in all dimensions. Compassion is the common factor in virtue, and the cure for selfishness. It is also the measure of every person, so…

> The success of any organization depends upon each member behaving selflessly to meet the needs of the group. This is false. A well-designed system will align individual self-interest with what's beneficial collectively. > Embracing compassion for all those who drift into our orbit is the only way to improve oneself in all dimensions. What does compassion look like towards someone who's trying to mug me? > It is als…

> A well-designed system will align individual self-interest with what's beneficial collectively.

A well-evolved human being will fit into the team in the optimal way, so long as the team is constructed by a well-evolved human being, who will do what you suggest without interference from their ego.

> What does compassion look like towards someone who's trying to mug me?

To beat the everliving sh_t out of them to keep them from earning more negative karma in the future, while earning positive karma from helping protect other innocents. Remember, letting the oppressors run rampant is not helping anyone, so you can earn good karma by selflessly preventing. And God does not want innocents harmed, so protecting yourself (and other innocents) is God's Will.

> Feeling positively towards others, and acting beneficially to others, are not the same thing.

You're right, the feeling of love is of little importance if one does nothing to benefit them. The key is action, not warm fuzzies.

> I do not subscribe to your religion.

That's your right, just as it is mine to love you anyway and try to educate you out of your ignorance. If you don't want me to, then I'll not bother you, but this is a public forum, so we can post so long as we remain within the guidelines.

That said, I'm not advertising for any specific religion, but to the core of all of God's religions, because they each have compassion at their core, or they have gone horribly astray. You must find your own path within the umbrella of God's Loving self-evolution. Seek and ye shall find what is perfect for you.

When you tire of your unhappiness, you can pray that God help you out of your ignorance and guide you to a suitable teacher. You don't have to do anything like that in your life, just like you don't have to wear clothes at the mall or drive on the correct side of the road. I do suggest, however, that you do what's best for both you and others, for you and those around you will be happier that way.

This is how human life works: you don't have to follow the guidelines, but there's hell to pay if you're an ahole about it. Imagine a world where compassion for all those around us was the norm, instead of this idiotic, wasteful, strifeful competition that is spoiling the Earth and causing so much misery.

Re: Egoless Engineering

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with "ego" as a concept IMO is that it carries negative connotations with most people and isn't exactly well-defined - some people might see it as always a bad thing (I think you might fall into this camp given that your phrasing "dedication and care expresses itself to others as ego" rather than saying it merely is ego). Personally I think that that is ego, but that ego is not necessarily a bad thing. Th…

I would argue that in fact you do need a critical mass of ego throughout the ranks of engineers in a large organization. An engineering culture where engineers don't care inevitably leads to abdicating responsibility for overall system health and even data/workflow correctness as PMs attempt to steer the ship without understanding the implications of what they are asking for. Once this has gone on for a while, the sy…

Agreed.

To make the best work you have to take pride in it. This work has my name on it, customers will use it, I want to improve their lives not make them worse.

The developers who come after me will need to assimilate this work. They'll need to build on it. I want to make their work a joy, not a burden.

Do I take pride in what I do. It's not enough that the code just compiles.

Pride is balanced by humility. I'm prepared to defend my choices (with well informed, well experienced) answers. But the choices I make are always a balance of upside and downside. And over my career things have changed which reweights some of those decisions. I'm open to external input from others because I want the result to be good not me to be right.

I want to be proud of my work. But I'm humble enough to let others help me to improve it.

[The above is my goal, sometimes I fall short]

Re: Egoless Engineering

#137
Part of me wants to say that it's best to work in a 'low-ego' environment as opposed to a 'high-ego' one - or to avoid working with people who have 'huge egos'... but I honesty find any discussion about 'egos' relatively devoid of meaning. As someone else said, it's difficult to find people who work without ego (whatever working without ego would mean). Most of my professional experience is as a working musician, and it goes without saying that artists have egos, in the sense that they try to bring something from their inner selves to the outer world, and that they invest a lot of effort in learning how to do so properly. Sometimes I've felt that the best musicians I've worked with were "low ego" but this could be just that they are supremely confident and also not lacking in affirmation from their audiences - and if they are kind, from their fellow musicians. The worst people I've worked with are talented people who can't seem to find the affirmation they crave, but feel they deserve. They feel constantly slighted and left behind. As a band leader, I realized I simply have to stroke these people's egos - no matter how confident, skilled, or amazing some people seem they are riddled with self doubt and absolutely need outside affirmation. I used to fight it, but eventually learned it was my job as a manager of sorts to do so...

Re: Egoless Engineering

#138
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western society (or at least USA society) seems to me to foster the idea of "not my responsibility". My example would be, going to a fast food place and not cleaning your table even though there are trashcans and places to put your tray. Spilling something and not even attempting to clean up after yourself. Unions have this in spades. "My job is X, I don't do Y, in fact I'm not allowed to do Y as that takes a job awa…

Huh? US society doesn't foster that. Sounds like you just live in a crappy area or a rich super entitled one. I've never lived in an area where people just left their fast food mess or just left spills. It's never been an attitude fostered anywhere I've lived. To be fair I mainly had experience with the midwest/western USA, maybe the east coast is different.

there's definitely a "it's not my job to _____, why would I do someone else's job for them" attitude I've noticed from some people, though I couldn't say what traits they share so as to identify a subgroup.

Re: Egoless Engineering

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the higher-ups (in all organizations) do, indeed, have a greater cultural influence on the group's ideals, attitudes, and behaviors. The especially problematic aspect of this is that we often reward the least compassionate with greater responsibility. That is backward thinking from backward-facing people. If a person wants more power so they can enjoy such "fruits" (more money, control over other people, more p…

> What we are witnessing across the Earth's societies is nothing less than the apotheosis of the masses' majorities exercising their free will to choose ignorance over wisdom There is a mismatch between your observations about humans as a whole, and the appeal to individuals and their individual values. I am all for individual ethics, but half the people on the planet could have great ethics, and things could still d…

There is no mismatch, friend. "Pulling others in", as you put it, requires two ends of the leveling-up: first, the initiate explains how to begin the self-evolution, and second, the newcomer accepts the challenge and begins their own path to self-evolution.

For those who invite, we are to do so with loving kindness, because the result is wholly dependent upon the receiver opening and then walking through the door we present. There is no compulsion in religion, and we must understand and remember that it is everyone's choice, and we cannot be negative about their declination. No badgering, no negativity whatsoever, period. We are to keep being kind with the hope that they will catch on eventually, as the events of their lives surface the negativity that they, themselves, have sown into the world via their willful ignorance. Perhaps they will reach a point where they've had enough of ignorance and are willing to give the Path of Love a try.

And this is no game, though systems theory is the proper model of our situation, where there in an intrinsic gravity we each face to the idea of overcoming our intrinsic negative traits (the vices of the heart/mind). Now, construct the model with cooperating verses competing individuals in the population, positive contributors verses negative contributors. Of course, you already correctly intuit the fact that the more of us that viewed our aggregate impact upon the Earth (and each other) this way (that we can actually change things by being a part of the positive force), things could improve quite rapidly. The fact is that we are moving in such a diametrically opposite direction to cooperative compassion that we are literally destroying the Earth for our future generations.

And it is our choice, each of us, individually, but with billions of us aggregating into a miserable mass of selfish f_cks who are causing unnecessary strife, unhappiness, and destruction via our willful ignorance of what is possible for us both individually and collectively.

Re: Egoless Engineering

#140
post #75

Was an interesting discussion, but lost me with the sort of pointless Musk bashing near the end. I remember back in the late 90's and early 2000's it was similarly cool to bash anything related to Microsoft. I spent a good bit of time writing a lengthy comment on slashdot about "Why to code". It was fairly poignant and well-received, except at the end of it I took a low effort pot-shot at Microsoft - because it was c…

The fact that they so readily call Musk as being "narcissistic" (or "asshole" or "cult leader") reveals the rather dark nature of these "egoless" souls. It is good to evaluate people on their actions rather than what they claim to be. We saw a good example of this in the Elm community[^1]. --- [^1]: From https://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts/why-im-leaving-elm/ > The leadership style in Elm is extremely aggressive and a…

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