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How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

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Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#131

Post by stavros »

palata wrote: post #42

In my 13 years of experience, I would say it's never worth giving feedback to your manager. Either they are good and it's useless, or they are not and they won't learn from you. I have come to a simple rule: if the manager is good, there is no problem. If the manager sucks (often that's because they lack experience, but it's all the same), just lie to them in order to preserve yourself. No need to have empathy for th…

I disagree. Superiors are people too, and they make mistakes. I've had subordinates give me feedback (which I followed), and I've given feedback to superiors (which they've followed). Both ways were extremely positive experiences and everyone involved was happier for it.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#132

Post by nvarsj »

tkiolp4 wrote: post #71
bradlys wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just due to an employee being H1B. It's that 80% of your peers are Chinese and Indian H1Bs who bring that culture of deference to authority into the US. I don't even feel like I'm working in the US when I'm working for any tech company these days. If I'm at ads for FB, I may as well be in Beijing. Some others, I may as well be in Mumbai. It would be nice to work with Americans/westerners for once and actuall…

Interesting. I used to work mainly with european developers (dutch, french, germans, russians, spaniards, polish, etc.) and I always could speak my mind, and others would do so. No BS, no avoiding direct confrontation. But more recently I have been working with ex-faang american developers and I don’t like it. It’s not that they are like indians and the like, but definitely not as direct and straightforward as europe…

I feel like Americans are all over the place. The top echelons of business in the US are very blunt and direct. The lower levels tend to be very indirect with lots of toxic positivity. I think this works out for capitalism and exactly fits the Gervais Principle.

Brits are even worse than Americans at all levels (hence, the largely incompetent government and the fact most businesses are poorly run - it's literally The Thick of It at all levels).

Indian/Asians are the absolute worst in terms of directness, these are all very strict hierarchies of business that only succeed if the top person is a genius, since they will never be challenged by anyone.

Europeans definitely are most direct of all, so they don't put up with wage slavery, so business leaders can't maximize their extraction of value from labour, but they tend to have better quality of life all around :).

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#133

Post by jayd16 »

devjab wrote: post #102
jayd16 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So bleak. It's fine to protect yourself but your managers are people too. You _can_ build a report with them and be frank with them. When I manage folks, I much prefer honesty over someone who just bullshits you.

There is a difference between treating someone as a human and bullshitting your manager though. I’m painfully blunt to the point where the management staff had to spend 3 hours in a crisis meeting discussing whether to fire me an another developer over our opinions given on a department meeting. Which to be fair was the wrong place to throw a couple of managers under the bus for something we’d been telling them for m…

I think this is an example of a different issue. It sounds like your managers listened to your feedback often and even let high profile disruptions slide.

In general I think honesty is a good policy and management should be receptive to hearing out problems and possible solutions but that's not the same thing as implementing all feedback.

Maybe you're right or maybe your pet peeve just isn't a priority or can't be done for countless reasons. I'm not saying you did this but something I've seen often is employees confusing being heard with taking the advice.

As professionals I think it's our job to give advice and respect management's decision to take it or not. That's it I also think it's management's job to explain the reasoning.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#134

Post by [deleted] »

bradlys wrote: post #95
fcarraldo wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, Americans are much more likely to see criticism as a threat or an insult than in most European business cultures, where blunt feedback is common. I’ve seen many teams in different companies led by Americans where simply pointing out that a plan will fail in a public forum is tantamount to spitting in their face. It’s absurd, and it destroys teams.

The gap is much bigger between Americans and Chinese/Indian than it is between American and European. I’m not just talking about public forums. Saying anything to your superior (perceived superior or otherwise) would result in disciplinary action nearly 100% of the time. It is not even about blunt vs tactful feedback. It’s about any feedback. You do exactly what you’re told and you shut the fuck up.

[deleted]

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#135

Post by MrMcCall »

bambax wrote: post #17

In aviation this is what Crew Resource Management is about, and in particular, how to make sure the monitoring pilot, who may be the least experienced one, can effectively supervise and review the actions of the other. Many crashes were the result of copilots' fear of speaking up. Business life could learn from this. The person in charge is not a king, they're simply the person tasked with making decisions. There is…

That story in Gladwell about the (IIRC) Korean Air having to switch cockpit languages to English in order to escape the intrinsic layers of deference built into the language was hardcore. They were going to get delisted in Canada if they didn't do it.

Yeah, better than crashing into a mountain. That cockpit voice recording was really chilling. Gladwell gets a lot of flack, but he's told some interesting stories.

And your further point about businesses needing it too should be expanded to organizations of all kinds. This is a human problem, which means it's an ego problem, on both sides.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#136

Post by [deleted] »

nvarsj wrote: post #118
bradlys wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just due to an employee being H1B. It's that 80% of your peers are Chinese and Indian H1Bs who bring that culture of deference to authority into the US. I don't even feel like I'm working in the US when I'm working for any tech company these days. If I'm at ads for FB, I may as well be in Beijing. Some others, I may as well be in Mumbai. It would be nice to work with Americans/westerners for once and actuall…

I've had a pretty similar experience in big tech. Some cultures do really seem to struggle with feedback (both giving and receiving). It can be a very painful work environment as a result - given I'm an incredibly direct person. The best work culture I had was in a dutch firm. People just straight up called bullshit out all the time, and it got fixed fast. So refreshing. I've never been able to find another workplace…

[deleted]

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#137

Post by j45 »

One rule I try to remember with leaders is to speak for impact and not impressing them.

Dealing with senior leaders (VP/Director, not C-suite) can be different too.

Managing up and influencing others may work well, or not at all.

Working one's way up in different workplaces, industries and regions can vary wildly and I would probably caution from my own experience in a lot of verticals that it's best to get to know the scenario and see if you can recognize what might help.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#138

Post by haliskerbas »

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

25% of my manager and above in big tech have acted in the ideal way you describe, and the rest have been back stabbing, childish, two faced, toxic, and many other negative traits, making any open honest or direct communication impossible

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#139

Post by runeblaze »

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

My limited corporate experience is that you fluff feedback to the less effective leaders so that you can still influence them. The more effective leaders you talk to them directly and team up with them to accomplish great things together. It is a matter of different strategies.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#140

Post by kaashif »

nvarsj wrote: post #132
tkiolp4 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I used to work mainly with european developers (dutch, french, germans, russians, spaniards, polish, etc.) and I always could speak my mind, and others would do so. No BS, no avoiding direct confrontation. But more recently I have been working with ex-faang american developers and I don’t like it. It’s not that they are like indians and the like, but definitely not as direct and straightforward as europe…

I feel like Americans are all over the place. The top echelons of business in the US are very blunt and direct. The lower levels tend to be very indirect with lots of toxic positivity. I think this works out for capitalism and exactly fits the Gervais Principle. Brits are even worse than Americans at all levels (hence, the largely incompetent government and the fact most businesses are poorly run - it's literally The…

As a Brit, I agree with your comments. I've had to overcome a lot of my own culture to be an effective leader, and even then I don't always do a good job.
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