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Please stop the coding challenges

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Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#131

Post by FartyMcFarter »

pmg101 wrote: post #89
paxys wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the system worked exactly as intended then. A seemingly smart person got a good job. What's the problem with this story exactly?

A moderately smart person was selected for a good job perhaps over many many better possible hires simply because that person had the leisure to learn the game. Inefficient. But nice for that individual, naturally.

But is there a good way to find the "better possible hires" which doesn't have other significant disadvantages? If you have a convincing method of doing that, many companies would be interested in your ideas.

Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#132

Post by _heimdall »

I've recently had a couple technical interviews where they were structured much more like a pair programming session. Those were a great experience on my end, and for the interview I expect it gives a much more realistic view of what it would be like to work with someone.

Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#133

Post by epicureanideal »

portaouflop wrote: post #79
epicureanideal wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the gatekeeping reliably ensure quality, or just filter down the quantity of doctors?

Let me answer your unknowable question with another one: Which doctor would you prefer do surgery on your brain - the one that jumped through all the hoops and went to 15yrs of med school - or the one that learned brain surgery through a YouTube tutorial? I think you know the answer. The problem is not gatekeeping in general it’s the detail and nuance of how gates are being kept and how to find the right amount of ga…

We could theoretically have the best of both worlds, right?

No unnecessary gatekeeping, but maximum necessary quality standards (which I distinguish from gatekeeping).

Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#135

Post by tshaddox »

ForHackernews wrote: post #111
dmvdoug wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s like the bar exam for lawyers. It bears absolutely no relationship whatsoever to the actual job and the work you will be doing. It’s a pointless ritual. And the point of the above story is that the person performed the ritual and then promptly forgot all the words once they succeeded. It illustrates the pointlessness.

It's not a pointless ritual. It tests for determination, grit, and willingness to grind on difficult, frustrating and ultimately value-free tasks. All crucial skills in the modern technology or legal workplace.

And by that argument, difficult big tech system design interviews are interchangeable with bar examinations.

Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#136

Post by mrkeen »

dmvdoug wrote: post #105
paxys wrote: post #75

The more people online complain about coding interviews, the more confident I am that they are the absolute best way to filter candidates for a software development job. Across the industry there are way too many talkers/pretenders/meeting schedulers and not enough people who can roll up their sleeves, jump into the code and actually get stuff done. And this problem becomes worse at higher levels. You can bitch about…

You: “Coding interviews are the absolute best way to filter job candidates for a software development job.” TFA: Coding interviews are a standard way of hiring. Also you: “Too many people in the software development industry don’t know what they’re doing.” The lack of cognitive dissonance is remarkable.

This is not cognitive dissonance.

GP is of the opinion that coding interviews filter out people who can't code.

Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#137

Post by parpfish »

ryandrake wrote: post #121
parpfish wrote: post #68

one of the biggest problems with coding challenges for me is the conflict between providing a good solution versus making a strong impression. do you show them a quick'n'dirty solution that ignores edge cases but shows i'm a pragmatic and not going to overcomplicate things? OR do you show something fancy that you'd never actually do in an real codebase that shows off my depth of knowledge and where my ceiling is?

Unfortunately, you often have to ask the interviewer (which is tough when it's a coding challenge and you have no way to ask for clarification on the rules). I know interviewers who will say "You didn't cover edge case A, B, and C, your solution is incomplete!" and other interviewers who will say "You are overthinking this, I'm just looking for an MVP."

that's part of what i like about whiteboarding interviews -- you can get realtime feedback and discussion the pros/cons of your solution in realtime

Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#138

Post by matsemann »

d2049 wrote: post #36

> build a mini-app from scratch in just a few hours It depends on what kind of functionality we're talking about, but this kind of task is exactly what people at my current startup have been assigned at times. It is absolutely possible to build a CRUD web app with reactive UI using modern tools in a few hours. > This is like asking a Ruby developer to debug PHP as a test of flexibility Again it depends on what the de…

> build a mini-app from scratch in just a few hours

But how often do devs normally set up a project from scratch? We have like 3 new apps in a few years where I work now in addition to the long running ones. So on average one in like hundred devs here have been part of creating something from scratch.

Sure, when you know what you're doing it's quick. But the first time can be slow, no matter how good you are. So for a coding task that should take a few hours, you might have spent all the time just getting up and running, and then you actually start the task as over time.

Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#139

Post by pessimizer »

ForHackernews wrote: post #111
dmvdoug wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s like the bar exam for lawyers. It bears absolutely no relationship whatsoever to the actual job and the work you will be doing. It’s a pointless ritual. And the point of the above story is that the person performed the ritual and then promptly forgot all the words once they succeeded. It illustrates the pointlessness.

It's not a pointless ritual. It tests for determination, grit, and willingness to grind on difficult, frustrating and ultimately value-free tasks. All crucial skills in the modern technology or legal workplace.

> It's not a pointless ritual. It tests for determination, grit, and willingness to grind on difficult, frustrating and ultimately value-free tasks.

This is what people say whenever one criticizes the methodology of any test. They say that the real test was actually the friends we made along the way. The real test was the degree to which you are willing to humiliate yourself, or to accomplish things you don't understand the purpose of, or to accomplish things that you do understand the purpose of but disagree with logically or morally.

We filter for the worst, most damaged, and most desperate people.

Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#140

Post by vharuck »

ForHackernews wrote: post #111
dmvdoug wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s like the bar exam for lawyers. It bears absolutely no relationship whatsoever to the actual job and the work you will be doing. It’s a pointless ritual. And the point of the above story is that the person performed the ritual and then promptly forgot all the words once they succeeded. It illustrates the pointlessness.

It's not a pointless ritual. It tests for determination, grit, and willingness to grind on difficult, frustrating and ultimately value-free tasks. All crucial skills in the modern technology or legal workplace.

I feel like you forgot the "/sarcasm" at the end.
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