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AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

control.princeton.edu

131–140 of 167 posts

Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#131
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deuterium is also not renewable, even if it is more abundant than uranium. The H1-B11 reaction would be a much better energy source than anything else, but for now nobody knows any method to do it. There is no chance to do it by heating, but only by accelerating ions, and it is not known how a high enough reaction rate could be obtained.

> Deuterium is also not renewable, even if it is more abundant than uranium Technology correct, in that after around a hundred trillion years even the red dwarf stars will have stopped burning hydrogen. But last I checked as yet there is no known way to harness the only (and even then merely suspected) infinitely renewable energy source: the expansion of the universe.

The amount of deuterium contained in a planet is a very small fraction of its hydrogen content.

The amount of hydrogen contained in a medium-sized planet like Earth is extremely small in comparison with the amount of hydrogen contained in a star.

The amount of energy that can be produced by fusion per deuteron is smaller than the amount of energy that is produced in stars per proton.

With all these factors multiplied, the amount of energy that could be obtained from all the deuterium contained in Earth is many orders of magnitude smaller than the energy produced by the Sun or by any other star.

Moreover, the energy obtained from fusion could never exceed a very small fraction of the energy received by Earth from the Sun as light, otherwise it would lead to a catastrophic warming of the Earth.

Nuclear fusion reactors are not really useful for solving Earth's energy problems. They could have a crucial importance only for the exploration of the Solar System and for providing energy for human bases established on Moon, Mars or other outer planets.

For Earth the only problems worth solving are how to make better batteries, including very large capacity stationary batteries, how to make other large capacity energy storage devices, e.g. thermal devices, and how to improve the energy efficiency of the methods used to synthesize hydrocarbons from carbon dioxide and water.

Making hydrocarbons at large scale from carbon dioxide would be the best way to sequester carbon dioxide, offering the choice between just storing the carbon in safe products (paraffin like) and using a part of the synthesized hydrocarbons for generating energy in a carbon-neutral way.

Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#132

TIL: it's not just buzzwords. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power#Machine_learning

AI is not a buzzword, try beating Go without machine learning. Just ignore the whole enterprise speak, and you'll see a lot of really cool things which are possible almost only by means of neural nets.

Almost every technology buzzword is based on something interesting and useful that then gets used in as many unsuitable applications as possible.

Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#133
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Deuterium is also not renewable, even if it is more abundant than uranium Technology correct, in that after around a hundred trillion years even the red dwarf stars will have stopped burning hydrogen. But last I checked as yet there is no known way to harness the only (and even then merely suspected) infinitely renewable energy source: the expansion of the universe.

The amount of deuterium contained in a planet is a very small fraction of its hydrogen content. The amount of hydrogen contained in a medium-sized planet like Earth is extremely small in comparison with the amount of hydrogen contained in a star. The amount of energy that can be produced by fusion per deuteron is smaller than the amount of energy that is produced in stars per proton. With all these factors multiplied…

I am already aware of those things.

On earth, there is an estimated 4.85×10e13 tonnes of deuterium; the energy density is 3.4x10e14 J/kg, giving a total yield of 1.649e31 joules. If you deleted the sun, this would be sufficient to maintain the current temperature of the Earth for ~9.5 million years: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=%281.649×10%5E31+joules...

At "merely" the level of current human power consumption, this will last about 43 times longer than C3-photosynthesis, about 26 times longer than the oceans, about 5 times longer than before Andromeda merges with the Milky Way, and 6-3 times longer than when the Earth is currently expected to be absorbed into the outer envelope of the sun as it enters the Red Giant phase: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=%281.649×10%5E31+joules...

Even if the sources I read giving those estimates are off by a factor of 10, deuterium alone, from earth alone, used as a total replacement for the sun, would still last longer than our species is likely to last before even natural evolution would have us speciate.

In the hypothetical future where we had a useful fusion reactor, the gas giants become harvestable, so the fact they're not on earth is unimportant. Likewise, on this timescale, every star in the nearest several galaxies — indeed, even absent novel technology and "merely"(!) massively scaling up what we've already invented, we already 'know'* how to get to places so far away that cosmic expansion is what would prevent a return trip.

As I said, it's technically correct that it is a finite resource. All I'm saying is that this is not a useful point on the scale at which we operate.

I expect it will be a useful point when we're star-lifting, but not now.

> Nuclear fusion reactors are not really useful for solving Earth's energy problems. They could have a crucial importance only for the exploration of the Solar System and for providing energy for human bases established on Moon, Mars or other outer planets.

I agree, however I also hope nobody makes a convenient cheap fusion reactor due to the proliferation impact of an affordable switchable source of neutron radiation.

> For Earth the only problems worth solving are how to make better batteries, including very large capacity stationary batteries, how to make other large capacity energy storage devices, e.g. thermal devices, and how to improve the energy efficiency of the methods used to synthesize hydrocarbons from carbon dioxide and water.

FWIW, I think that — if only we could cooperate better — a global power grid would be both cheaper and better than stationary batteries. Even just made from aluminium, never mind superconductors (and yes, I've done the maths). But we'd still need mobile batteries for transport, so that's fine.

The cheap abundance of PV power even today means I don't think we need to care much about making hydrogen electrolysis more joule-efficient.

> Making hydrocarbons at large scale from carbon dioxide would be the best way to sequester carbon dioxide, offering the choice between just storing the carbon in safe products (paraffin like) and using a part of the synthesized hydrocarbons for generating energy in a carbon-neutral way.

I suspect that carbon sequestration is unlikely to be a great win: there's a very narrow window close to zero loss/profit where on the loss side it's still cheap enough that people do it because it's a vote winner and on the profit side where it's not so profitable that people break photosynthesis a few hundred million years before natural processes do it.

* in the sense that Jules Verne "knew" how to get to the moon: the maths wasn't wrong, but the engineering was only good enough for a story

Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#134

About 20 years ago I was an undergrad at the university of Padova (italy), and in the outskirts of the city (in Legnaro) there was a fusion experiment. The fusion device was in one building and the control room was in an adjacent building. Back then we were using CRT monitors and each time there was a fusion event, the magnetic confinement field was so strong that the image on all the screens in the control room woul…

I wonder if that would affect hard drives too. Or microphones.

Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#136

There is a lot of AI research in the nuclear fusion space. For inertial confinement fusion (a competing technology to magnetic confinement fusion, e.g., tokamaks) the National Ignition Facility (NIF) used it for their experiment that resulted in "ignition." My lab is collaborating with researchers at the Laboratory for Laser Energetics to use AI to improve inertial confinement fusion (ICF). We recently put out this p…

Isn't there a lot of daylight between old Fortran code and AI? What if we rewrote the old algorithms in C with modern techniques? Multitthreading? Or GPU compute? If there's value there, I could do these things. Probably wouldn't take that long

The issue isn't that the Fortran code is too slow. The issue is that the problem description is super complicated, hard to measure and very hard to control is ways that noone really understands. However, you can just plug the measurement outputs and system inputs to some controller. This machine learning helps control by jointly modeling imperfections in the physical model, imperfections in the hardware that controls things, and imperfections in the measurements. That's something you just really don't want to even attempt writing by hand (in whatever programming language).

Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't really work because marine life is good at filtering and concentrating a subset of the elements that are in spent nuclear fuel. There are already ocean fish that are too poisonous too safely eat because of (coal-emitted) mercury pollution—and that's only 100,000 tons of mercury, total, in the history of human industry [0]. If you dig in to the hard numbers surrounding spent fuel, it's a much, much more t…

Mercury from burning coal is an extremely dilute pollutant. There's zero hope for capturing and containing it. Nuclear waste in contrast is literally just barrels/boxes of stuff. You can pick it up with a forklift and put it inside a sealed container for the next thousand years.

> Nuclear waste in contrast is literally just barrels/boxes of stuff. You can pick it up with a forklift and put it inside a sealed container for the next thousand years.

You can't pick it up with a forklift to put it inside the sealed container. That would make the forklift (and its operator) radioactive. You can only use a forklift after it's already within the sealed container. See for instance this real-life video (shot on a nuclear power station in my country), which shows used nuclear fuel rods being put inside a sealed container for long-term storage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X5K46ALdD0

Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI is not a buzzword, try beating Go without machine learning. Just ignore the whole enterprise speak, and you'll see a lot of really cool things which are possible almost only by means of neural nets.

Almost every technology buzzword is based on something interesting and useful that then gets used in as many unsuitable applications as possible.

I really like idea of blockchains and think it's a pretty clean and clever solution for many problems outside of crypto.

Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#139

There is a lot of AI research in the nuclear fusion space. For inertial confinement fusion (a competing technology to magnetic confinement fusion, e.g., tokamaks) the National Ignition Facility (NIF) used it for their experiment that resulted in "ignition." My lab is collaborating with researchers at the Laboratory for Laser Energetics to use AI to improve inertial confinement fusion (ICF). We recently put out this p…

Isn't there a lot of daylight between old Fortran code and AI? What if we rewrote the old algorithms in C with modern techniques? Multitthreading? Or GPU compute? If there's value there, I could do these things. Probably wouldn't take that long

Rewriting the old Fortran code in C will probably make it slower with new bugs. A smarter thing to do when picking up terrible code written by physicists is to document everything you can, write tests and then start refactoring bit by bit using modern Fortran features (yes, the latest standard is 2023).

Fortran compilers had more than 40 years to become pretty good at generating efficient code; they can make assumptions that are not possible in C (for example, no aliasing) to do so. Besides, most compilers already can do vectorization and autoparallelisation with multithreading, coarrays, and/or openMP, which can be offloaded to a GPU.

Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#140
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats least of your problem imo. Neutron corrosion is bigger problem. There is trick to use Lithium shielding, with create Tritium needed for Fussion. But not sure how effective it is, especially for long term reactor lifetime. Those reactors are very expensive, not sure if its worth to shut it down every year and replace entire Li shielding...

I think beryllium is a better candidate. It can be grown as a single crystal and there’s lots of research into using it for shielding in nuclear lightbulb reactors.

Beryllium is a good plasma facing material (low Z, low retention, low activation) and acts as a neutron multiplier, but it's highly toxic: only a few months ago ITER announced they scrapped the design of the first wall because working with beryllium was causing too many complications and slowing the project even more.

It's also so rare to be completely unsuitable for a power plant: a single DEMO-like reactor with a ceramic blanket (HCCB design) would require 70% of the world beryllium output to build and then burn through 200kg/year. Essentially you could only build a couple of these.

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