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The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

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Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#131

Post by tokinonagare »

expatjapan121 wrote: post #97
germandiago wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been a couple of times in Japan, have some Japanese friends here in Vietnam, where I live. I am spanish. In my humble opinion, japanese society is very kind and well-behaved, but, if you cannot speak japanese and you live in one more-or-less big city, according to all the feedback I got, then, you are basically out. And anyway, you will never be a japanese. I mean, there is much less difference between foreign…

> if you cannot speak japanese and you live in one more-or-less big city, according to all the feedback I got, then, you are basically out. > And anyway, you will never be a japanese. I think you answered yourself that if you _can_ speak Japanese, things are different. The reality is that if you can speak Japanese, it's quite easy to be well integrated with the people. In your example, I don't know if the Romanian le…

> Please stop telling people "they will never be Japanese" since it's blatantly wrong.

You are wrong here. You will indeed never be Japanese if you haven't both 2 ethnic Japanese parents and raised in Japanese (second-generation raised abroad, for instance in South American are out). You can't rewrite all your DNA and go back in time to have a Japanese education in Japan.

The real issue is why caring so much about "becoming" Japanese? You can integrate in Japanese society as a foreigner, and being treated as an outsider also has its perks. Typically you are not expected to follow some of the rules, and thus has less bullshit to deal with. Just be careful of not becoming too good in Japanese (or at least pretend not to be), so you can maximize the benefits of speaking Japanese while minimizing the expectations.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#132

Post by throw78311 »

I posit that Japan is able to keep its "exoticness" (to much of the world) as a culture because the cultural osmosis that comes from having a populace with good English skills promotes homogenization. I imagine a Japan that's highly fluent in English will look a lot more similar to S. Korea.

I might go to extend this theory and say the quality of English literacy in Japan is intentionally kneecapped at some level in an attempt to retain their cultural identity, even if unconsciously.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#133

Post by numpad0 »

expatjapan121 wrote: post #106
Aeolun wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the OP is correct, though probably not in the way they mean. I love living in Japan, but I’ll never be able to adopt that mindset, or be able to eat all those disgusting fishes they love. That’s fine. A lot of Japanese people think it’s valuable to have different perspectives too, even if they could never convince themselves that it’s ok to just walk up to someone and ask them what their problem is.

IIUC you are saying OP is correct in that culture exists in the world. And you are affirming that Japanese people believe this too and are fine with people that don't eat "disgusting fishes", like me (cooked I can't do, sashimi I'm fine). So the sentiment that somehow Japanese are incompatible for culture reasons, which is the message I got from the thread I replied to, is not correct in your opinion too, right?

I kind of suspect it might be worth clarifying what a language is and how it's differentiated from culture. I've heard that honorifics works differently in Korean language e.g. for a supervisor in work situation where one is not expected to use one for his own supervisor in Japanese, while one absolutely is in Korean, and I feel that's more towards culture while also possible to include in grammatical ruleset.

> cooked I can't do, sashimi I'm fine

btw completely understand this. My technical brain says just pure NaCl and pure heat for a whole fish as caught with absolutely no herbs allowed is technically crazy. I hated the brown chiai regions in buri slices growing up. It's crazy that yaki-zakana, literally "roast fish" is one of characteristic dish of the country.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#134

Post by svara »

helboi4 wrote: post #117
expatjapan121 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you cannot speak japanese and you live in one more-or-less big city, according to all the feedback I got, then, you are basically out. > And anyway, you will never be a japanese. I think you answered yourself that if you _can_ speak Japanese, things are different. The reality is that if you can speak Japanese, it's quite easy to be well integrated with the people. In your example, I don't know if the Romanian le…

If you speak Japanese you will have a waaaaaay better time in Japan. But no they will not ever accept you in the same way you could be accepted in a European country. If you're Korean or Chinese you might get away with it with the younger generation. But ethnicity is still a big barrier there. Source - I speak Japanese.

> But no they will not ever accept you in the same way you could be accepted in a European country.

I've lived in Japan for many years and speak Japanese alright (disclaimer, that was a long time ago though, in the 90s) and now live in Germany. I travel a lot.

I think what you're saying is directionally correct, but really more of a difference in degree.

For example, I've often seen Asian-Germans being addressed in broken English by older Germans, even though German is their strongest language. Or being complimented on their fluent German. That's got to feel pretty "othering".

And don't tell me the country that just elected mister Trump is as open to the world as is often claimed.

This may all feel completely different if you're around the right group of people, and I imagine that's similar in Japan today, though I haven't been back in a long time.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#135

Post by epoxia »

laurieg wrote: post #64

I've lived in Japan for over a decade and I think this article summarizes some aspects of English education well. I'd like to share a few of my thoughts and experiences too. English is often put on a very high pedestal. Speaking fluent English is associated with being "elite". A tech company in my city is slowly moving to doing all development work in English. I went to a casual tech talk event they held. Every talk…

> He told a story about being called upon in English class to translate the Japanese word for "great-grandfather"

Very similar/relevant shimura ken skit. https://youtu.be/67KlmXYDom4

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#136

Post by CarVac »

I just went on vacation to Japan and it was fascinating how much relief even the competent English-speakers there seemed to show when I would speak with them in my semi-fluent (vocab-deficient though) Japanese.

There are translations everywhere, on signs and in museums (those are fascinating because the translations omit 80% of the detail since foreigners will lack historical contextual knowledge) but I got the feeling that with the exception of accommodating tourists, there's never any use for most natives to ever speak English.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#137

Post by siver_john »

ekusiadadus wrote: post #86

I'm Japanese. Speaking English in Japan is very challenging. All my friends and family speak Japanese, and everything from social media to news is completely accessible in Japanese. I'm an entrepreneur, and I use English when talking with international clients and overseas VCs. However, I lack confidence, and the communication tends to remain superficial, making it difficult to effectively do business internationally…

This is extraneous to your comment, but as someone who speaks some Japanese, if you ever want someone to practice English with, I am more than happy to lend a hand.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#138

Post by sourcepluck »

lmm wrote: post #17
rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The states does have breastauraunts like Hooters where you can watch the game and the bartenders and waitresses happen to be flirty and buxom, but they're compensated by tips instead of by the hour.

I almost mentioned Hooters, I think they're the exception that proves the rule - they're seen as unusual and seedy, whereas in Japan that's pretty much the norm for a bar.

The norm for a bar in Japan is to be like Hooters?

Eh, what? This wasn't my experience at all. I didn't conduct a study, but I was in a good few bars over there, in three different cities. Can you elaborate on what you're referring to here?

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#139

Post by mapt »

helboi4 wrote: post #117
expatjapan121 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you cannot speak japanese and you live in one more-or-less big city, according to all the feedback I got, then, you are basically out. > And anyway, you will never be a japanese. I think you answered yourself that if you _can_ speak Japanese, things are different. The reality is that if you can speak Japanese, it's quite easy to be well integrated with the people. In your example, I don't know if the Romanian le…

If you speak Japanese you will have a waaaaaay better time in Japan. But no they will not ever accept you in the same way you could be accepted in a European country. If you're Korean or Chinese you might get away with it with the younger generation. But ethnicity is still a big barrier there. Source - I speak Japanese.

That is the situation right now.

It's not necessarily going to be the situation forever.

Every demographic crisis involving low birthrates is an immigration melting pot waiting for the population to get desperate enough to change policies.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#140

Post by nayuki »

Shawnj2 wrote: post #124
ekusiadadus wrote: post #86

I'm Japanese. Speaking English in Japan is very challenging. All my friends and family speak Japanese, and everything from social media to news is completely accessible in Japanese. I'm an entrepreneur, and I use English when talking with international clients and overseas VCs. However, I lack confidence, and the communication tends to remain superficial, making it difficult to effectively do business internationally…

I think it’s interesting that there are signs etc. entirely in English in Japan though

Which interestingly is illegal in Montreal / Quebec in Canada. (Signs must contain French text and the French text must be no smaller than other languages.)
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