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Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#131

Post by aaronax »

golemotron wrote: post #120
stuaxo wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds so illegal, it's crazy there aren't consequences for that. EDIT: Article on the kills switch https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jul/10/uber-bosses-tol...

The alternative, giving them a password that gives them read/write access to sensitive systems, would be insane. Subpoena for particular data.

Thinking the systems that a company has are so sensitive that the company is basically above the law is the insane thing.

It is just a company--a group of people granted certain rights. They have databases...fancy filing cabinets. Just because the company is famous shouldn't preclude their filing cabinets from being searched (presuming legal processes are used and not abused).

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#132

Post by phendrenad2 »

As a non-European, it seems like these raids happen regularly to large companies' offices in Europe (mostly US companies). Maybe some Europeans can chime in and answer something that's been bothering me: Does this happen to smaller companies, too? Is it a serious problem to getting work done, not knowing if regulators are going to shut you down and rifle through your filing cabinets?

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#133

Post by NBJack »

lokar wrote: post #115
stuaxo wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds so illegal, it's crazy there aren't consequences for that. EDIT: Article on the kills switch https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jul/10/uber-bosses-tol...

Nothing uber does is crazy anymore

Not by comparison to Uber at least. 'Historical' documentaries about it are going to be wild. And probably on Netflix.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#134

Post by ipaddr »

sensanaty wrote: post #104
YetAnotherNick wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should it be illegal? Isn't it akin to "right to remain silent"? Why the need to present any information to police unless it is asked by court. Assuming that they didn't delete the data, just moved it to somewhere safe where it couldn't directly be taken away. We had a raid in one of my previous company due to copyright violation due to a user uploaded content. Authorities came in to take in all the codebase, rep…

Presumably the French police aren't randomly deciding on a Tuesday for no reason to check the company for proof of them being tax cheats without some court somewhere requesting it, but even if they were, we're talking about a company here, not a person. A person has the right to remain silent, it doesn't make sense for a company to have that same right. And the 2nd half just reads like pure corruption to me, they pai…

[flagged]

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#135

Post by I_am_tiberius »

tnolet wrote: post #90
I_am_tiberius wrote: post #85

I know I'm likely alone in this opinion, but corporate income tax seems like a poorly designed tax to me. Why should companies pay taxes in a year with high profits, even if they face losses for the next ten years? Why should I pay corporate income tax when dividends and income are taxed anyway? Corporate income tax also seems to heavily influence business strategies as a consequence, which wasn't its intended purpos…

The world of tax is complex. Business exist in many shapes and sizes. So... - because companies heavily use government resources like roads and stuff. - because losses can be offset against profits. These tend to be middled out over multiple years. You can port losses to other years. - a lot of companies (holdings etc.) don't pay out income tax and are basically just letterbox companies. These companies need to pay t…

> - because losses can be offset against profits. These tend to be middled out over multiple years. You can port losses to other years.

These losses expire (different from country to country)!! Plus, inflation is not taken into account.

> a lot of companies (holdings etc.) don't pay out income tax and are basically just letterbox companies. These companies need to pay tax on dividends otherwise they would literally pay zero tax.

Tax on dividends is not corporate income tax. Dividend tax is classified as capital gains tax, which is entirely separate. My point is that anyone taking out money must pay taxes through personal income tax or dividend tax. So corporate income tax is just money that would be taxed anyway - or invested/used by the company. So no real purpose other than producing another cash inflow for the government.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#136

Post by dmurray »

dh2022 wrote: post #129
_bin_ wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denying access to data that could still be specifically subpoenaed isn't destruction of evidence, it's a normal security measure. They still have the warrant to search everything in the office , but not the right to use those computers to access uber's entire worldwide infrastructure. I have no idea what french law says about it but I think it's morally fine and don't care that uber did it.

I think this is an example of law lagging technology. A warrant gives the police the right to inspect and seize contents of a safe inside a house. Similarly, the law should be updated so that a warrant gives the police the right to inspect and seize contents of local computers. Local computers surely have valid certificates that allow the computers to connect to the mothership, right?

Does a search warrant for your house give the police the right to search your car, if they found your car keys in your house? What about your neighbour's or your employer's car - perhaps on the other side of the world - if you happened to have those keys? To compel you not to tell your employer to change the locks, so the seized keys won't work?

These seem like closer real-world analogies for what exactly a warrant to search someone's computer should entitle the police to do.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#137

Post by atoav »

golemotron wrote: post #120
stuaxo wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds so illegal, it's crazy there aren't consequences for that. EDIT: Article on the kills switch https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jul/10/uber-bosses-tol...

The alternative, giving them a password that gives them read/write access to sensitive systems, would be insane. Subpoena for particular data.

You are aware of the fact that tax evasion means these companies are freeloading on the tax money the rest of us (including: you) are paying? Especially in the case of uber which is essentially using public infrastructure to make their money having them pay taxes should be normal.

I agree that customer data needs to be protected, but it is bold to assume that is the case at all with these powerful corporate entities: if they lie to the state when filing taxes what makes you believe they are ernest when it comes to the protection of their users privacy?

Maybe it is a weird ideology I am holding here, but the more powerful an entity is, the more transparent it should become — nowaday we got this completely reversed with poor people being naked in front of the state and big corps literally fooling everyone.

Edit: some also seem to think the state is the behemoth that jumps on the poor little companies here. To that I just have to think about the account of the German public prosecutor Bäumler-Hösl (of wirecard fame) where she told about a raid on a bank where she and 4 collegues were opposed by 130 (!) company lawyers.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#138

Post by _bin_ »

dh2022 wrote: post #129
_bin_ wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denying access to data that could still be specifically subpoenaed isn't destruction of evidence, it's a normal security measure. They still have the warrant to search everything in the office , but not the right to use those computers to access uber's entire worldwide infrastructure. I have no idea what french law says about it but I think it's morally fine and don't care that uber did it.

I think this is an example of law lagging technology. A warrant gives the police the right to inspect and seize contents of a safe inside a house. Similarly, the law should be updated so that a warrant gives the police the right to inspect and seize contents of local computers. Local computers surely have valid certificates that allow the computers to connect to the mothership, right?

Not necessarily. Depending on how the org's set up, the system may be permissioned to access too much stuff. I think justice systems should lean less on a general warrant - too much of a fishing expedition - and instead focus on subpoenas specifically related to their area of investigation. E.g. if they seize the CEO's computer on accounting or tax concerns, I sincerely doubt they showed a judge probable cause to seize, I don't know, new product designs. As such they should not be able to access them.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#139

Post by spacemanspiff01 »

dh2022 wrote: post #125
YetAnotherNick wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should it be illegal? Isn't it akin to "right to remain silent"? Why the need to present any information to police unless it is asked by court. Assuming that they didn't delete the data, just moved it to somewhere safe where it couldn't directly be taken away. We had a raid in one of my previous company due to copyright violation due to a user uploaded content. Authorities came in to take in all the codebase, rep…

I assume when the office was raided there was a warrant that would give police the right to inspect and seize property...

My impression was that they were trying to get remote access to ubers US servers/infrastructure/data?

Might be wrong...

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#140

Post by lokar »

NBJack wrote: post #133
lokar wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing uber does is crazy anymore

Not by comparison to Uber at least. 'Historical' documentaries about it are going to be wild. And probably on Netflix.

I meant they have redefined the bar for crazy to be so high no one will ever cross it. They are the GOAT for crazy.
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