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Federal civil rights watchdog sounds alarm over Feds use of facial recognition

therecord.media

131–140 of 151 posts

Re: Federal civil rights watchdog sounds alarm over Feds use of facial recognition

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a propaganda device. Should we rename plane accidents to "plane violence" since they are not inevitable and should be reduced?

Hmm yeah plane failures are totally as pervasive as traffic violence Calling it propaganda is also crazy. Like you want people to keep dying this way? Great way to show your true colors pal

How about workplace accidents? They are also not inevitable and should be reduced. Are they "workplace violence"? Clearly not, that already means something else.

That is why it is accurate to call "traffic violence" a propaganda device.

Re: Federal civil rights watchdog sounds alarm over Feds use of facial recognition

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a propaganda device. Should we rename plane accidents to "plane violence" since they are not inevitable and should be reduced?

Hmm yeah plane failures are totally as pervasive as traffic violence Calling it propaganda is also crazy. Like you want people to keep dying this way? Great way to show your true colors pal

Classic propaganda device: if you're against calling X "Y", you must be in favor of X.

"Traffic violence" is not a thing. Call them "traffic accidents" as we always have, and we can move on.

And then, of course, bicyclists often run into other bicyclists, or into pedestrians. So now there's "bicycle violence"?

Soccer players often get injured, or get into fights. So there's "soccer violence"?

Re: Federal civil rights watchdog sounds alarm over Feds use of facial recognition

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the revulsion, if I can call it that, is to the apparently-trendy term "traffic violence." What was wrong with "traffic accidents"? People had gotten used to it so you had to invent something new?

Kind of. Call it what it is. It’s extremely pervasive and has a massive impact on the culture, quality of life and economics in the US. It is a shame because it would be a fixed problem if we held people accountable or fixed land use or designed infrastructure to be safer

No, they are "traffic accidents." You don't get to rename them so they sound like something else.

Re: Federal civil rights watchdog sounds alarm over Feds use of facial recognition

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hell are people down voting that for? It's not an endorsement of the legal principle. This is the world we live in. But I'm sure many of you have money - why not try organizing and changing the law.

Maybe because it's ignorant. The answer from salawat has some knowledge behind it.

[deleted]

Re: Federal civil rights watchdog sounds alarm over Feds use of facial recognition

#135
post #29
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how you can differentiate between humans and corporations. They are both fundamentally the same. They are born... and oh wait, yeah. But still under the 14th ammendment's equal protection clause the Supreme court determined they were in 1886 (some argue 1819). Maybe we shouldn't treat corporate speech the same as human speech under the 1st amendment, but that would allow regulation of corporations giving…

We treat corporate speech as an extension of human speech because corporations are made up of humans, and there is no way of abridging the speech of corporations without also abridging the speech of the humans within that corporation. Also, abridging corporate speech creates a precedent for abridging the speech of all human collective entities like religions, political parties, advocacy groups and the press, because…

> there is no way of abridging the speech of corporations without also abridging the speech of the humans within that corporation

Sure there is. If corporations (/LLCs) were prohibited from directing their humans to say specific things as part of their employment, those humans can still say whatever they want on their own time.

> Also, abridging corporate speech creates a precedent for abridging the speech of all human collective entities

It's disingenuous to pretend that a corporation (/LLC) is just some group of people. Rather it's an entity that has gone out of its way to obtain a government created liability shield. Conditioning that grant on following extra regulations aimed at mitigating the harm caused by the extreme scale fostered by the limited liability makes perfect sense.

> corporations as an abstract entity created by humans to express collective human will

Wut? The corporate mechanic is that of directing humans in a top-down fashion. The only people thinking corporations represent "collective human will" are the ownership and managerial classes who either are the people directing the corporation top-down, or at least have to repeat enough of the corporate kool-aid to get promoted. The majority of people view them as the least-worst option to receive a paycheck and often see their own wills suppressed - even though respecting that distributed intelligence would often help the corporation (ie "shit rolls downhill").

Re: Federal civil rights watchdog sounds alarm over Feds use of facial recognition

#136
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't "appalled" but definitely felt uneasy about it. I am aware I could opt out and read all the discussions about it here on HN. I didn't do anything about it, despite being a very privacy conscious person (using firefox, use max adblocking/anti tracking etc). Why? I don't want to be an asshole, hold the queue and cause trouble for a TSA agent who is just doing the job and likely have no idea what "opt out" mean…

I had a perfectly pleasant experience opting out. The agent simply smiled at me, asked a question to verify that I was the person on the ID I had handed him, and off I went. It was much easier and less gropey than opting out of the mm wave scans.

In Europe you might end up on the long queue with the non EU residents fighting about their place in the row if you opt not to go through biometrics check or you've got a non biometric ID. Some of the machines are also badly designed because 6'4" tall people have to bend their knees so that the scanner can level to their face.

Re: Federal civil rights watchdog sounds alarm over Feds use of facial recognition

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of. Call it what it is. It’s extremely pervasive and has a massive impact on the culture, quality of life and economics in the US. It is a shame because it would be a fixed problem if we held people accountable or fixed land use or designed infrastructure to be safer

No, they are "traffic accidents." You don't get to rename them so they sound like something else.

You completely missed the nuance that peer countries have up to half an order higher deaths per capita.

This is an easily solved problem. More on the nuance: humans are imperfect when driving, so design infrastructure around that.

What are you gaining out of this? Like do you also look aside when gun violence is brought up?

Re: Federal civil rights watchdog sounds alarm over Feds use of facial recognition

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they are "traffic accidents." You don't get to rename them so they sound like something else.

You completely missed the nuance that peer countries have up to half an order higher deaths per capita. This is an easily solved problem. More on the nuance: humans are imperfect when driving, so design infrastructure around that. What are you gaining out of this? Like do you also look aside when gun violence is brought up?

> What are you gaining out of this?

Stopping the deliberate debasement and pollution of our language. That's what I'm gaining. Or trying to.

Call it what it is ("traffic accidents"), and we can stop arguing. Other countries have fewer accidents? OK, that's worth talking about. I didn't "miss the nuance" because I'm not responding to that right here.

Or "bad road engineering" if that's what you want to talk about.

Re: Federal civil rights watchdog sounds alarm over Feds use of facial recognition

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> anonymous facial recognition I don't have an answer to the specific question, but I have experience working on single and multi-camera person tracking systems and I can tell you that they highly focus on the faces for recognition[0]. There is no such thing as anonymous facial recognition or even person tracking. Data creeps in through things that can be later extracted, though you can make this process more difficu…

I see. The reason I ask is that india has a bit of a littering problem at bus stands, and the fines for littering are hardly enforced due to lack of budget. I was hoping to fix the issue by applying a small fine, all the time. To do it, I was hoping I could build a sort of person-hood tracking system that says, see, that fellow who threw a packet of chips is now standing at platform 10, near the concession stand, go…

Yeah I think this is kinda the danger of these types of systems, and why I don't want to work on them anymore. While I think there are a lot of good uses to this tech, it also has the power to do much more harm and the way I've seen it used even in democratic societies makes me uncomfortable about authoritarian overreach. I could not see a way this can be used in a privacy preserving manner, even for things as simple as counting number of patrons in a store[0]. Right now, I don't feel comfortable furthering this technology in the US, not to mention how I saw it being used elsewhere[1]. I'm sure if you take some time thinking about how the tech could be abused you would find a lot of ways. But it is up to you to decide if it is worth it after doing that exercise (your mind might even change later).

I think this is one of the difficult things about creating things. It is easy to get caught up in the benefits of a technology and how it can be used for good. But technology isn't good or bad, it is a tool. Like any tool, you need to consider how it will be used, and that means how it will be abused. My undergrad was in physics, and this lesson is often taught when you get to atomics (or maybe because my advisor worked at Los Alamos and with many of the people who built the atomic bombs). Physics tends to not hide the skeletons in the closet because atomic weapons. But I think CS still does and maybe we haven't caught up to how influential our work is in modern day. How software can (and does) kill people. Or maybe it is the abstraction of software, working at a high level it is easy to feel disconnected. Either way, I think we need to tread more carefully and just make sure we're concerned about ethics. It is a personal decision where the lines are drawn, but they can't be ignored. After all, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, right? Unfortunately evil isn't only created by evil men, but often good men with good intentions.

FWIW, I'm all for the intent. But I question if there are other ways to solve these issues. But that may require a more complex and nuanced approach[2]. But if enforcement is already a problem, then I think there are bigger problems at play that this technical solution might make worse. Unfortunately as we advance the world gets more complex haha

[0] You can get pretty good if you do upfront processing to blur people, but that first means you need to detect people lol. So this would need to be done on device (as in, the camera itself. Which is possible btw).

[1] I saw a lot of videos from India (as well as the whole subcontinent and South East Asia), where the customers were trying to prevent theft (good usage), but there were some other things that had me concerned and were being hinted at. I also think one big difference is that I appeared to be the only person on my team that would look at data we were processing. Not to snoop or be invasive, but because this is the best way to solve data processing problems; you need to check your assumptions, learn what is creating errors, find things you didn't consider, and all that. To be good at ML you can't just pipe in data and expect results, and you shouldn't treat the algorithms like black boxes. While they aren't transparent ("white boxes"), that doesn't mean they're completely opaque either (and we're learning more every day).

[2] I think one key piece of information is that we need to ask why things like littering and theft is less common in richer neighborhoods. Or at least by their residents. Personally, my belief is that this is more to do with a personal safety net. It's easy for ethics to be eroded when you're worried about your next meal or being able to afford rent. These are obviously harder issues to resolve, but I think they are worth addressing. Because I think lifting up the quality of life of the lowest class of people benefits everyone. A rising tide lifts all ships, and I do believe it even lifts the biggest ships more.

Re: Federal civil rights watchdog sounds alarm over Feds use of facial recognition

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You completely missed the nuance that peer countries have up to half an order higher deaths per capita. This is an easily solved problem. More on the nuance: humans are imperfect when driving, so design infrastructure around that. What are you gaining out of this? Like do you also look aside when gun violence is brought up?

> What are you gaining out of this? Stopping the deliberate debasement and pollution of our language. That's what I'm gaining. Or trying to. Call it what it is ("traffic accidents"), and we can stop arguing. Other countries have fewer accidents? OK, that's worth talking about. I didn't "miss the nuance" because I'm not responding to that right here. Or "bad road engineering" if that's what you want to talk about.

Jesus get a grip. "debasement" and "pollution".

Language is living. Get off your high horse. People are allowed to invent and use new words and terms. Language evolves with use, not by people like you holding on to dear life for every little thing.

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