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Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

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Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#131

Post by Aerroon »

andy_ppp wrote: post #51

It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. Most countries are already pretty much bankrupt - it's worth thinking about for every debt (US National Debt is $35.35 trillion!!) there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. If companies avoid tax and rich people avoid tax it means more tax for normal people who work for a living.

Maybe governments need to stop spending 40-50% of the entire GDP?

For example, the US federal government + state governments spend about $10 trillion a year. The US has a GDP of about $25 trillion. And the US isn't exactly known as a high tax country. France is estimated to be at 58%...

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#132

Post by seydor »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #114
seydor wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case the EU would deem the state aid that the company receives is illegal. This is actually what this ruling claims, that Apple received illegal state aid.

I understand but that's not really the point of my comment. This is just the first line that replies in passing to the previous one...

Ah well, the EU does have tax havens and it will keep them after this ruling. But there are limits because after all the EU can't be a fair open market if one state gives out so huge state subsidies.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#133

Post by piltdownman »

jajko wrote: post #62
RickarySanchez wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the purpose of a country is to maximize the opportunity of its citizens which is exactly what Ireland is doing. They're not trying to maximize tax income otherwise they would have a higher rate

Ireland is part of much bigger bloc, and milking it hard since Apple couldn't care less about some irrelevant tiny island nation. The only interesting part of it, it can 'hack' into EU via dodgy tax deals that circumvent EU policies. Not 100% sure if its illegal, but its highly amoral, no questions there. Here in Europe we don't like that, money is not above else, greed is not good. The view on this topic boils down…

And what part of Germany or the Benelux do you hail from?

Also "money is not above else, greed is not good" is absolutely not the policy of the major economic powers in the European Continent. The 2008 banking crisis and the subsequent austerity imposed on Ireland by the IMF as a consequence of bailing out unsecured bondholder in European Banks in order to stop a contagion effect completely refutes that notion.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#134

Post by izacus »

Rinzler89 wrote: post #125
izacus wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain where exactly did Ireland gain benefit from not collecting these taxes?

Because getting even And that's the problem right there. It's a constant race to the bottom between EU states where the EU taxpayers are the loosers and the corpos are the winners.

Would it be really 0%? Is there any grounds for that? Those companies are based in Ireland due to IP law, not tax law.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#136

Post by izacus »

InsomniacL wrote: post #129
izacus wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain where exactly did Ireland gain benefit from not collecting these taxes?

You can google why do countries give tax breaks. Are you suggesting that Ireland did not benefit from this illegal deal?

Yes, I'm suggesting that Ireland as a country did not benefit from this deal. That does not mean that some Irish individuals did not.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#137

Post by techpression »

jeppester wrote: post #122
techpression wrote: post #5

Why is it Apple that has to pay for what Ireland did wrong? Genuinely curious here, it's not like Ireland is some random dude on the internet selling stolen goods and Apple should've known better.

Apple is selling to the whole of EU. Is it unreasonable to conclude that they should have known to follow the EU laws rather engaging in a tax scheme offered by Ireland? I'm not entirely sure what to think myself about the fairness of this. But going forward I definitely prefer that corporations will have to be careful about engaging in unfair tax deals in the EU. Otherwise those corporations would just be looking fo…

Amazon got away with it and so did Fiat, smaller sums and in Luxembourg and Netherlands, still, company specific tax deals based in country specific laws. Apple clearly picked the wrong horse, but unless there’s actual reform (which will likely cause a whole slew of other issues) the tax setup of multinational companies will carry on, maybe not risk free, but it’s still a win for them long term no matter what.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#138

Post by izacus »

piltdownman wrote: post #123
izacus wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irish law yes, EU law no. It's like saying that you couldn't forsee a state law overriding a lower level region/county law.

That's not how the EU works. To give just one major example, our constitution regularly overrules EU law - Ireland has to go to referendum for Treaties - e.g. The Lisbon Treaty.

There are whole parts of EU law that always precede local law without the need for local harmonization.

At least read up on basics of how EU works if you're going to debate law.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#139

Post by darkstar_16 »

andy_ppp wrote: post #51

It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. Most countries are already pretty much bankrupt - it's worth thinking about for every debt (US National Debt is $35.35 trillion!!) there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. If companies avoid tax and rich people avoid tax it means more tax for normal people who work for a living.

That's not even the same thing. The govt is bankrupt because it keeps printing money to get out of previous debt and other poor choices. The companies are following the rules and taking advantage of loopholes in the system.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#140

Post by moomin »

Iulioh wrote: post #92
andy_ppp wrote: post #51

It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. Most countries are already pretty much bankrupt - it's worth thinking about for every debt (US National Debt is $35.35 trillion!!) there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. If companies avoid tax and rich people avoid tax it means more tax for normal people who work for a living.

Its just the prisoner dilemma. If you don't your competition will. We just need more spine in the country's legislation to close ANY loophole, because this wasn't illegal tax evasion, it was legal tax ellusion. The point is that EU judged this unfair by Ireland and that effectively it stole revenue from other European counties to favor jobs in ireland. Basically saying "you (country) can't have a lower tax rate than…

A good way of thinking about the EU is as a solution to the prisoner's dilemma.
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