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Nginx has moved to GitHub

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Re: Nginx has moved to GitHub

#131

Post by Dylan16807 »

Alupis wrote: post #126
Dylan16807 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"more money than you " is a pretty crazy strawman of the actual comparison they made. The general idea of imposing more user-friendliness on very large corporations is not a bad one.

> The general idea of imposing more user-friendliness on very large corporations is not a bad one. This is not a "user-friendliness" issue by it's very definition. The OP is not even a user! > "more money than you" is a pretty crazy strawman of the actual comparison they made. Perhaps you didn't read the conversation. The parent literally made the argument that Microsoft (ignoring that Github is a separate company) h…

> This is not a "user-friendliness" issue by it's very definition. The OP is not even a user!

They don't need an account to be a user, as you seem to acknowledge later in your comment: "The naivety to believe the lack of a Github account somehow safeguards your browsing data"

> Perhaps you didn't read the conversation. The parent literally made the argument that Microsoft (ignoring that Github is a separate company) has plenty of money and therefore should provide this service for free even to non-users.

They said "one of the most successful companies in human history".

That has nothing to do with the parent's amount of money. It's not a human-comparable amount of money.

If the company had ten million dollars the parent wouldn't be making the same argument about size.

> This entire thread is pure insanity. Life doesn't need to be this difficult people. Create a throwaway account if you are so worried... or find some other service. You are not owed anything by Github - yet despite that they have made it trivially easy to benefit from their services at no cost to you.

I have an account. That doesn't change how companies should work. And I find no "difficulty" in having a little discussion.

> You are not owed anything

Yeah I am. They make mass market money and they use public infrastructure. If the population wants to impose rules on them, the population gets to. Like forcing them to pay taxes. That's money they owe me indirectly.

I don't get to make the decisions on my own, but I can say if I think a theoretical rule would be good.

Re: Nginx has moved to GitHub

#132

Post by Dylan16807 »

Alupis wrote: post #125
Dylan16807 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not accurate. GitHub is still getting lots of data from people without accounts, and providing open access helps them get more users in general. If we have to do a restaurant analogy, it's like going to a restaurant (buffet?), opting out of premium, and still wanting access to a particular food item. It's not automatically ridiculous.

The OP is literally standing outside the restaurant looking through the window and complaining about not being allowed to eat for free. > GitHub is still getting lots of data from people without accounts This doesn't matter. If you want code search, you must log into a free account. Why is this controversial? Github isn't a charity - they don't exist to benefit freeloaders that won't even create a free account. Life…

Your version of the analogy makes no sense, because the people with accounts are also eating for free.

If data is payment, then both groups are paying.

If data isn't payment, then what is? Please elaborate on what distinguishes the groups, and how people with free github accounts fit into the analogy.

Re: Nginx has moved to GitHub

#133

Post by luckman212 »

SpecialistK wrote: post #106
nicholasjarnold wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the originals remain dominant for enterprise and free users anyways. I'm a former pfSense user that reluctantly moved to OPNsense a handful of years ago after a lot of bad press around Netgate started circulating widely causing me to believe that support for the community offering might wane over time. I was under the impression that many people had moved off of pfSense for home use. I'm surprised by your assertion…

pfSense maintains some momentum due to name recognition, but anyone who digs a little deeper will see that they're clowns and go with OPN instead.

Can you please cite some recent examples of this clownlike behavior?

Re: Nginx has moved to GitHub

#134

Post by Narhem »

jsheard wrote: post #3

What's the state of nginx nowadays? Last I heard the original core team had fractured and formed two different forks while F5 continued to develop OG nginx, so there's three nginxes being developed in parallel now. Have the forks gained any traction?

nginx is one of the building blocks inside Kubernetes. I'd say it's doing okay and probably will for the foreseeable future. I've had the chance to look into the code base and it's relatively easy to read and work with, I doubt there will ever not be funding to have people contribute.

Re: Nginx has moved to GitHub

#135

Post by kelnos »

nicce wrote: post #100
Alupis wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides all of that - Github has zero obligation to provide Free services to users, let alone non-users . The person you are responding to doesn't even want to make a free account yet expects to be able to use all of Github's services for free . That's some wild entitlement. The disconnect here is unreal...

> The person you are responding to doesn't even want to make a free account yet expects to be able to use all of Github's services for free. To be fair, definition of free depends. OPs argument was that they pay with data. That is not free if you think that you lose something. It is different question do we value it similarly.

Sure, and if they don't want to pay with data, then they don't get to use the free search. While I don't love it, it's well within GitHub's rights to set those terms. They pay the bills, they get to decide who uses it, and how.

The real problem is that a company like GitHub (now owned by Microsoft, of all companies, sheesh) has a strongly market-leading position in the idea of "publicly-hosted git repositories". Even if they were giving away everything fro free, and not tracking users, that would still be concerning.

Re: Nginx has moved to GitHub

#136

Post by kelnos »

amiga386 wrote: post #52
HellzStormer wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I don't think this is a valid case of enshittifying. Products that you pay for that loses features or break or become more painful to use are enshittifying. A free feature that stays free but requires you to make a free account (no credit card needed), I can see at least one very valid reason: if the feature heavier than a simple page (which is the case here), then it's an open door for DDOS attacks. Bein…

> The alternative is having to do captchas and the like to use those features anonymously This is not the case. You may have noticed that Google Search, Bing, etc. don't require login or captcha to do a search. Billions of people use this search daily. And yet, they will throw a captcha at you, or even just say "you're a bot, stop bothering us" whether you're logged in or not , if their signals have detected what the…

The entire point of Google Search is to take in everyone, serve ads, and drive people to use other Google properties. Every user that has to jump through hoops in order to access Google Search is a net loss for them.

GitHub doesn't really care all that much if random anonymous users can use their search. Anon users can view source trees, wikis, etc. and check out code, which is more than enough for most people.

> Do you think it was due to DDOS attacks, or do you think it was a power-play to attract more sign-ups and logins?

I think you and I don't know anything about what's going on there internally. I'm usually quick enough to assume the worst about actions Microsoft (of all companies!) takes, but even former GitHub employees have commented here that the new search system is much more resource-intensive than the old, and bots and scrapers were causing real problems. I choose to believe people who seem credible instead of playing the cynic and assuming everything is done with evil intentions and that everyone is lying to me.

Sure, they could build a big sophisticated system to figure out who to serve CAPTCHAs to, or who to outright ban, but why spend the time and money on that when they can just require a login, and the people they care about won't really care.

And sure, this move very well might drive some new signups. Maybe that's a net win for them. So what?

Re: Nginx has moved to GitHub

#137

Post by kelnos »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #30
eblume wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth mentioning here I think that github's code search is really quite good. I'm not trying to say that github can do no harm or that github "owning" OSS code hosting is a good thing, but the github search bar is a utility that IMO is worth the price of admission. I think that sourcegraph maintains a similar quality OSS code search that can be searched for free but I have not personally used it.

The problem is that GH makes it the login process as painful as possible. Login tokens expire frequently, necessitating new logins. Logins require 2fa every time, which makes them extremely flow-breaking. Post-login you're not returned to the file you were on, so now you need to navigate back to search. Logins are per domain and per device, so I end up dealing with this 4x per day if I'm using GitHub heavily. It's un…

That's strange; I've been logged in to GitHub without having to re-log-in for.... a year or two now? I cannot remember the last time I had to log in. Maybe I visit the site more often, though, and that has something to do with it? Or the network you visit from is for some reason flagged as high-risk?

Re: Nginx has moved to GitHub

#138

Post by aseipp »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #49
aseipp wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, ordinary login is one of the things they've genuinely improved over time I feel? I absolutely never deal with logins more than once a day per machine? With stuff like Passkey support now, I basically click two buttons in 1Pass and I'm logged in instantly on ~everywhere. I also feel like I never have my tokens expire. I'm probably not doing the same stuff as you. It's sudo/elevated mode that really gets you I t…

GH Enterprise and public GH don't share tokens, so 1 login/day automatically becomes 2. Then, logins aren't shared across devices and 2 additional devices (phone and personal computer) makes 4 logins/day. Not sure why GitHub expires tokens so quickly, but I can replicate it across every device I own and multiple accounts. Maybe they just don't like me?

Yeah. I think they just don't like you. I log in probably once every 3 months or something, on every device. Nowhere close to every day.

Can I ask what country you're from? Maybe that has something to do with it?

Re: Nginx has moved to GitHub

#139

Post by riedel »

luckman212 wrote: post #133
SpecialistK wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pfSense maintains some momentum due to name recognition, but anyone who digs a little deeper will see that they're clowns and go with OPN instead.

Can you please cite some recent examples of this clownlike behavior?

Out of curiosity I googled 'pfsense clown' and found this thread: https://old.reddit.com/r/opnsense/comments/1ct683k/clown_mom...

Re: Nginx has moved to GitHub

#140

Post by eesmith »

TillE wrote: post #129
eesmith wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must surely know that people use Microsoft GitHub for far more than source control, right?, with issue tracking, email notification, CI, and GitHub Actions. I recently tried to get a small FOSS project to switch to Codeburg. The answer was "no" because the free CI for them let them catch some MacOS on Apple Silicon bugs (the devs don't have that hardware locally), and because they are already used to GitHub, maki…

So what's the problem? GitHub gives you a bunch of free stuff that would be pretty annoying/expensive to self host. Seems like a good deal. If they remove some of that stuff, that would be worth complaining about. Until then, seems smart to take advantage of what GitHub is offering. Their CI isn't even super proprietary, you can basically just write bash scripts.

I pointed out that any "Resilience/ monopoly concerns" must consider more than source hosting.

The phrase "pretty annoying/expensive to self host" highlights the source of those concerns.

How could one "just write bash scripts" to support macOS if you don't have Apple hardware, as in my example?

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