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The expected value of the game is positive regardless of Ballmer’s strategy

gukov.dev

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Re: The expected value of the game is positive regardless of Ballmer’s strategy

#131

This sort of misses the forest for the trees, although neat application. Ballmer's argument is essentially about tail risk. Expected value is absolutely not a good way to make bets if you value survival, because you only get one shot. Same reason you wouldn't go all in every time you get a poker hand that's "expected" to win. Because you'll (very probably) be bankrupt in a few hands. Sure the mean is +$0.07 or whatev…

I don't view the original problem this way, but let's think about it!

> the spread on that surely goes over the 0 line.

Do you imagine starting with $1 or $1000? :)

Let's add a condition that Ballmer has infinite money, we start with a specific budget, and we can't continue playing if we exceed budget randomly changes after each game,

In the game where you start with $N, win $1 with probability p > 0.5 and lose $1 otherwise, the chance of eventually losing all your money is (p/(1-p))^N. [1]

So, the ruin chance actually becomes exponentially lower the more money you have at the start.

The steps in the random walk above belong to a simple, Bernoulli-like random distribution. Meanwhile the mixed strategy is a more complex discrete random variable because it can do more steps than just +1 and -1.

However, I believe that the same principle applies for the mixed strategy.

If you zoom out and consider "batches" of steps, you can apply the Central limit theorem and see that all these random walks work roughly the same. The caveat being that you need a large enough starting budget to "zoom out" :)

Granted, the standard deviation for the mixed strategy is ~$1. I would guesstimate that if you start with ~$1000, there's no way you will ever lose your money.

> What would be more interesting is to monte carlo simulate this strategy and look at the win/loss distribution. Presumably the choice is then not so clear cut.

Agree, this would be a nice demonstration! I will think about doing this next time I get a couple of hours of free time.

[1] https://math.stackexchange.com/a/153141/65143

Re: The expected value of the game is positive regardless of Ballmer’s strategy

#132
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal fav: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/rCszxibClKE

My favorite Ballmer practice is stack ranking. It completely screwed up the entire company. I worked on Windows Mobile at the time the iPhone came out. We were all shitting ourselves.

Stack ranking existed at MSFT before Ballmer became CEO, i.e., when billg was CEO.

It was a practice that Jack Welch brought into the corporate world and Microsoft was just guilty of following what were thought to be best practices at the time.

Source: worked at Microsoft before Windows Mobile was a thing.

As an aside, Windows Phone was my favorite phone OS and Ballmer seemed like the one who actually cared about it a lot.

Re: The expected value of the game is positive regardless of Ballmer’s strategy

#134
post #106

I did a very similar exercise after reading the original post. You can get the EV a lot closer to the optimal +0.2 (Although I was unable to prove how close) by dropping the requirement "do not increase worst-case complexity for the binary search" as this is lost with initial guesses outside 36-64 anyway. Deviating at a higher depth makes punishing specific guesses in the tails a lot cheaper, only giving up 1-2 cents…

Interesting! What about the worst case? And which kinds of strategies did you pick?

Re: The expected value of the game is positive regardless of Ballmer’s strategy

#135
post #45

This sort of misses the forest for the trees, although neat application. Ballmer's argument is essentially about tail risk. Expected value is absolutely not a good way to make bets if you value survival, because you only get one shot. Same reason you wouldn't go all in every time you get a poker hand that's "expected" to win. Because you'll (very probably) be bankrupt in a few hands. Sure the mean is +$0.07 or whatev…

> Same reason you wouldn't go all in every time you get a poker hand that's "expected" to win. Because you'll (very probably) be bankrupt in a few hands. You're calling an all-in 100% of the time in a cash game if your expected value is positive. If you don't, you can't afford to play at that table. You're not going all-in with any hand expected to win because that's not how you maximize profit. It has nothing to do…

Calling an all-in and going all-in are two totally different things, unless the all-in (that you'd be calling) is for an amount greater than you have. Otherwise, it's just "bet a lot, but you can keep trying if you lose". Going all in, on the other hand, is "bet it all, and if you lose you're done". The risk on the later is much greater. Any time there is no chance for recovery on failure, your risk analysis changes dramatically.

Re: The expected value of the game is positive regardless of Ballmer’s strategy

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to be wrong like Ballmer. The net balance of his decisions were billions of dollars.

The net balance of his decisions, his circumstances, his random events and who knows what else. Please please stop with this "if he's rich he must be smart" argument. Please?

>The net balance of his decisions were billions of dollars.

Billions of dollars less than it could have been, not just for Microsoft, but all Windows users combined.

If he's rich he must be fortunate, have to find out if he's smart some other way.

Re: The expected value of the game is positive regardless of Ballmer’s strategy

#139
post #94

This sort of misses the forest for the trees, although neat application. Ballmer's argument is essentially about tail risk. Expected value is absolutely not a good way to make bets if you value survival, because you only get one shot. Same reason you wouldn't go all in every time you get a poker hand that's "expected" to win. Because you'll (very probably) be bankrupt in a few hands. Sure the mean is +$0.07 or whatev…

> Expected value is absolutely not a good way to make bets if you value survival Yes! The St. Petersburg "Paradox" shows that we intuitively know that. I put "paradox" in quotes because I don't think it's a paradox, it's just a sane reaction. (Sam Bankman-Fried was a big fan of EV and famously declared that he would toss a coin where heads would double the "value" (?) of the world but tails would destroy it.) In shor…

The context can also be very important. For instance: In case A, you have $50, and are offered to bet them against a fair coin flip, if you guess right you win another $50, if you guess wrong you lose your $50; in this case the most rational choice would be to refuse to play the game. In case B, you have $50, and are offered to bet them against a fair coin flip, if you guess right you win another $50, if you guess wrong you lose your $50; in this case the most rational choice would be to agree to play this game.

The missing context is that in case A, you need in 10 minutes to repay $50 debt to the Sicilian mafia, or else they'll kill you to make an example for others, and you have no other assets or other ways to make money in this short time. In case B, the situation is the same, but you owe $100 instead of $50.

Re: The expected value of the game is positive regardless of Ballmer’s strategy

#140
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Expected value is absolutely not a good way to make bets if you value survival Yes! The St. Petersburg "Paradox" shows that we intuitively know that. I put "paradox" in quotes because I don't think it's a paradox, it's just a sane reaction. (Sam Bankman-Fried was a big fan of EV and famously declared that he would toss a coin where heads would double the "value" (?) of the world but tails would destroy it.) In shor…

What idiot wouldn't put destruction of the world as '-infinity' of value? Equating money with value is a simple trap as well. Who cares if you can win millions when a single loss wipes out all your savings? Since anything below a certain level of money leaves you trapped with no way out it could be argued that the value of being destitute is not 0 but -infinity which makes any risk of losing all money unacceptable. T…

> What idiot wouldn't put destruction of the world as '-infinity' of value?

Literally anyone, you included. Every day, there is a chance that the roof collapse on you while you're sleeping; that's -Inf of value! Yet you don't put infinity resources into preventing that since you consider the probability low enough to not obsess over it.

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