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Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

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Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#131

Post by riku_iki »

cletus wrote: post #31

I expect this to be bad for everyone except Google if the ruling holds. Why? Mozilla and Apple will lose significant revenue from having Google as the default search engine and Google will no longer have to pay those billions. What's more, no one else can pay to be the default either (eg the short-lived Mozilla Bing deal). So what's going to happen? Most users will probably still use Google, nobody is getting paid an…

> Apple will lose significant revenue from having Google as the default search engine and Google will no longer have to pay those billions.

there is also Android ecosystem, where DOJ may ask google to prompt user with Search Egnine selection dialog, and Google can easily lose some significant share of traffic to Bing/ChatGPT/etc.

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#132

Post by BeetleB »

linotype wrote: post #41
ein0p wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On iOS it’s only from a pre approved list. Want to use a less censored search like Brave? Nope, unless you use something other than Safari.

What browser allows you to specify a custom search engine? I just checked Chrome and it doesn’t on desktop.

Firefox, for what - 20 years now?

You can make any search field on any web site your default search engine.

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#133

Post by init2null »

mrob wrote: post #117
init2null wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no excuse for not making search engine management as simple and flexible as Firefox does, especially on the desktop, but I appreciate the hoops you jump through to keep hacks available for browsers with less user choice.

Firefox makes you jump through hoops too. To enable the UI for adding custom search engines you need to set the undocumented preference "browser.urlbar.update2.engineAliasRefresh" to true.

I meant changing it in Preferences though, and not a drop-down like it used to be. You can add completely new engines, change defaults, and even give them keywords for quick searches without any undocumented change.

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#134

Post by dukeofdoom »

Google is getting more terrible by the day. They've been fudging results for political reasons. But aside from that, they just make it harder to find what you need, to sell ads and misdirect to paid landing pages. So in a way, they're stifling human progress. Even if they just waste a billion people's time for one minute every day. It's like 1900 lost years, or 23 lifetimes.

Compare it to ChatGPT which just gives a really good answer right away.

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#135

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

cletus wrote: post #31

I expect this to be bad for everyone except Google if the ruling holds. Why? Mozilla and Apple will lose significant revenue from having Google as the default search engine and Google will no longer have to pay those billions. What's more, no one else can pay to be the default either (eg the short-lived Mozilla Bing deal). So what's going to happen? Most users will probably still use Google, nobody is getting paid an…

Really, really curious how this all plays out WRT Mozilla. Mozilla receives on the order of 80% of their revenue from making Google the default search engine on Firefox. They're going to have to layoff the majority of their employees.

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#136

Post by riku_iki »

hintymad wrote: post #47

> Google’s payments to make its search engine the default option on smartphone web browsers violate US antitrust law, a federal judge ruled Monday, handing a key victory to the Justice Department. I still find it hard to understand why this makes sense. Don't companies make exclusive deals all the time, and whoever bids higher will get such deals? Why is it different for Google this time?

> search engine the default option on smartphone web browsers violate US antitrust law

Interesting that they limit the case to mobile browsers. I guess MS share is significant enough on desktop.

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#137

Post by cletus »

akira2501 wrote: post #63
cletus wrote: post #31

I expect this to be bad for everyone except Google if the ruling holds. Why? Mozilla and Apple will lose significant revenue from having Google as the default search engine and Google will no longer have to pay those billions. What's more, no one else can pay to be the default either (eg the short-lived Mozilla Bing deal). So what's going to happen? Most users will probably still use Google, nobody is getting paid an…

> but Google didn't buy its way into dominance annd maintain their dominance through exclusivity deals This is a huge claim. Do you have any evidence to back it up?

Google started when the tech sector considered the search problem "solved". You had the likes of Altavista, Yahoo and AskJeeves. There was some variety (eg Yahoo's directory) but no one thought search was going to be a big business.

Then Google came along and ripped them all to shreds from 1998-2006 or so. The most important platform was Windows and Google gained dominance there without paying anyone. Sure, you can argue Microsoft didn't take it seriously (because they didn't).

Then Microsoft did start taking it seriously and the smartphone revolution happened. If you were around at the time, you may remember that many networks simply couldn't handle the anticipated (and actual) Internet traffic from iPhones. IIRC I saw figures that an iPhone user used >8x as much data as the most recent Nokia phone user with Internet connectivity. Why? Because using a browser on an iPhone was a quantum leap forward in terms of power and usability.

Bing was really the only serious threat here simply because Microsoft had deep pockets. So Apple was able to extract (extort) Google to keep it as the default search on iOS.

Bing tried exclusivity deals, most notably with Bing but it was short-lived. Google also pays Firefox but it's less than they earn from that user and no one else can afford that. If no one else can do the same Google wins.

But the main point is that when given a choice, the majority of people choose Google because it is better for most people.

Where exclusivity typically hurts is where it's used to push an inferior product or at least a product where the product isn't preferred.

Now the DoJ could argue that we want to avoid getting to the point where Google has an inferior product but has the market domination and deep pockets to keep out competitors. Maybe that's valid. But I think in the short-to-=medium term, this has simply saved Google billions of dollars a year.

Also, for smaller search engines like DDG, they can never afford the billions Google could Billions was material, even to Apple. What DDG could pay isn't. It's not worth taking.

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#138

Post by mistrial9 »

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #108
the_duke wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume OP meant in terms of money. Apple will not accept scraps (like tens of Millions) for the default search engine, after getting billions from Google. And no-one else will have the financial resources or be willing to burn these amounts (Microsoft) to offer similar numbers.

They don't need to offer similar numbers? If this ruling prohibits Google, the dominant search engine, from buying their Safari defaults, then Apple has a choice of: - Zero dollars - More than zero dollars from a smaller search competitor (Bing? New AI player?) I suspect Apple will want more than nothing. They also have quarterly financials to report.

> They also have quarterly financials to report.

one of the biggest brands in the world, with how many billions in CASH .. needs the money.. This is the same nonsense that WSJ peddles everyday.. "greed is good" and makes the world go around, details are just in the way.

No, actually.. there are other parts of society that are touched by this, and their children btw.. Apple and Google and whomever are now bumping against the edges of Big Society. There is no predicting what will come out of the woodwork on this IMHO

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#139

Post by kelnos »

acdha wrote: post #119
chadash wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome is not anyone's default browser, but it still has dominance. People will be bothered a little under some circumstances.

Chrome is a complicated case in general because Google poured money into promoting Chrome and had some of the most popular sites on the web promoting it heavily and actively sabotaged Firefox at several key points. I respect a lot of the Chrome team’s early work but it’s very hard for me to see that as a story about fair competition alone.

Yeah, this is the thing that gets me. Chrome is the (rare) exception when we're talking about defaults generally winning, not the rule.

An interesting thought experiment might be to imagine if Chrome was actually somehow the default browser on Windows and/or macOS. I think we could expect Edge's and/or Safari's market share numbers to be much lower than they are now if that were the case.

Re: Google loses antitrust suit over search deals on phones

#140

Post by ssl-3 »

ncruces wrote: post #115
ren_engineer wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the more blatant monopoly abuse by Google is how they use the Google search homepage to shill their other products. They effectively give themselves billions of dollars in free advertising

Because it's much better for the consumer to search for a city, get an interactive map right there on the search results, but no link to jump to Google Maps so they can get an estimate on how long it takes to get there, because that'd be bundling.

Search term: "Detroit"

Search results include: "Explore maps of Detroit on HERE[0], Google Maps[0], OpenStreetMap[0] [...]"

[0] insert link

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