10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023 • Hacker News Board

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#131

Post by InTheArena » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 8:54 PM UTC

bonzini wrote: post #86

InTheArena wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That stopped being true 70 years ago, and it was the withdrawal of American aid that brought Castro to power (he still pretended to care about human rights then).

"Aid" is a bit of an understatement considering that Castro was fighting against the US-and mafia-backed dictator (Fulgencio Batista). The withdrawal of American support to Batista happened because the corruption and violence had reached unsustainable levels even for an anti-communist.

People make this argument - but it’s consistent through history with moderates as well as non-moderate government. Withdrawing support is always seen as weakness an established state and leads radicals to overthrow governments. Germany 1931(bankers withdrew funds), Afghanistan, Cuba, Vietnam.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#132

Post by throwup238 » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 8:55 PM UTC

basisword wrote: post #53

It's interesting reading the opinions in the comments on this thread. As a non-US person, I don't have a strong opinion on Cuba. I'd like to visit someday but don't know much about it other than the headlines. Reading the comments here it sounds like a pariah state on the level of North Korea. With 1m people leaving in a year, it clearly has its issues - but lots of the comments here are a good example of how your co…

For the most part, the only Americans that really care enough about Cuba to form a negative opinion are Cuban immigrants and their descendants. They happen to be a powerful voting block in Florida, a swing state, so they have an outsized effect on national politics.

If not for them, the embargo would have been dropped years ago and relations would have been normalized.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#133

Post by Devasta » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 8:55 PM UTC

jimmar wrote: post #124

jmyeet wrote: post #106

I really want people to understand that a sterile term like "economic sanctions" really means "starving them to death". It's not just food. It's the infrastructure necessary to grow food and to have clean drinking water. It's basic medicines, life-saving stuff. What we, as a country, have done and continue to do to Cuba is absolutely unconscionable. It affects us too. Over the last 60+ years there have hundreds of th…

The UN, UK, and EU have no sanctions imposed on Cuba [1]. Why has no other country prevented Cuba from "starving to death?" Honest question. Is the United States so powerful that our trade is the only thing keeping countries alive? [1] https://globalsanctions.co.uk/region/cuba/

Secondary sanctions. If your company trades with Cuba, then companies that want to trade with the US also violate the sanctions by trading with you.

So even something as basic as opening a bank account in such circumstances isn't possible, as no bank will cut themselves off from the entire worldwide banking system just to provide you an account.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#134

Post by riffic » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 8:55 PM UTC

perhaps it's time to normalize relations with their government and end the blockade.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#135

Post by AnimalMuppet » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 8:57 PM UTC

energy123 wrote: post #49

seniorivn wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are a hostile dictatorship, with zero resources but their oppressed people. Why would USA be interested in allying with them?

The US should oppose expansionist dictatorships that attempt to alter the status quo via forceful revisionism. That's Russia in Ukraine and China in Asia. I don't see how opposing Cuba achieves anything in the US interests.

Cuba was in the "attempt to alter the status quo via forceful revisionism" club. They had literally thousands of soldiers and "advisors" in various hot spots, trying to export the revolution.

That was the 1970s, though. Cuba was allegedly involved in the coup in Venezuela in 1992; arguably, the chavismo government would not have happened without Cuban involvement. That government still rules Venezuela.

Are they still trying to stir up trouble? If not, how long ago did they stop? I don't know. But there definitely were reasons to impose sanctions on Cuba.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#136

Post by riffic » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 8:57 PM UTC

wkat4242 wrote: post #11

giancarlostoro wrote: post #6

I wonder what a sensible way forward for Cubans is, and their government. What would it take for the US to lift sanctions (I assume a radical shift within Cuba's government), and for Cuba itself (as a whole) to restructure their government in a way that would benefit them and everyone. Cuba would be a great travel destination. Their cigars aren't as on par anymore as far as I know, but there's potential there, Nicara…

Why does the US still have sanctions on them anyway? The missile crisis was 50 years ago. It's time to forgive.

more than 60 years ago actually.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#137

Post by kjellsbells » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 8:58 PM UTC

The problem commonly skated over is that two views cam be true at once. For example:

- the "Batista" regime was dictatorial and repressive. The people fought back with Castro. The first wave of people to land in Miami were essentially the moneyed class who lost everything. Unsurprisingly they hate the Castro regime and its descendents. The US government were happy to accommodate them under the guise of anti communism.

- the "Castro" regime is dictatorial and repressive. The people cant fight back so they leave. The people landing in Miami and their descendents hate the regime for taking everything. The US Republicans are happy to accommodate them under the guise of sticking it to the libs.

I dont see any of this changing until the regime changes in Cuba to a more democratic one simultaneously with the Republican party imploding in Florida. Which basically means not in my lifetime.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#138

Post by InTheArena » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 8:59 PM UTC

ein0p wrote: post #129

InTheArena wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’d much rather the USA just invaded it, subjugated all its people while proclaiming that it is a long held part of the post-Kennedy American empire. Fits his narrative better.

I think he’d much rather have a permanent and painful boil on America’s ass, like what the US has in Taiwan. Mexico isn’t cooperating, so maybe Cuba will. There’s precedent for that kind of thing, as well as for US military getting its ass handed to it while trying to “subjugate” Cuba.

Thankfully even CcP authoritarians have more sense than this. China is and will continue to foment unrest in South America to play the same role, but after watching china rape Africa’s resources for the last decade, they are far less likely to capitulate.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#139

Post by surfingdino » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 9:01 PM UTC

This plus low fertility rates paint a bleak demographic picture. What happens to a country whose population collapses? I don't think we have past data to reference here?

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#140

Post by joecool1029 » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 9:01 PM UTC

Again and again I've been arguing for access to information. Let Cuba land an underwater cable in Miami. Ever since I was young I was fed this line 'Glasnost helped accelerate the collapse of the Soviet Union, people wanted things their government wouldn't give them... free access to information not filtered by their government', but the US argues for some reason that Cubans can't have this.

Is it fear of an even bigger migration? Why? Is it expat Cubans looking to kick out the ladder?