I wonder if a simple test for "obstinacy" would be: how much does the person write/publish?
Attention-seeking is a different trait...
Tell me more! I'm starting to get "one-eyed man is king" intrusive thoughts from your suggestion..
The Right Kind of Stubborn
131–140 of 249 posts
Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
Obstinant can just be a nay-sayer though? Someone who isn't even trying to solve the problem their way but someone getting in the way of problems being solved at all. I have a lot of respect for people that are confident in something who are willing to actually go and do that something, even if they're wrong. Persistence in this context is persevering through being wrong and not giving up until you figure out a way t…
Nay-sayers exist too, but I think they are out of scope for what PG is talking about. He's talking about the people actually working on solving a problem, not someone on the sidelines.
That confusion does make this exact obstinate/persistent terminology tricky for conversations outside this particular HN thread, though. Which is a shame, because the underlying distinction as you've laid it out is very important.
Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn
#133Who wouldn't kill for a foolproof way to generate Collison brothers on cue, from cheap inputs. Now that we've heard the arguments for talent recognition, what are some prospects for talent development?
Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn
#134I like this article a lot. I think a lot of the distinction between persistence and obstinance comes down to identity, attachment, and self esteem. Almost everyone who is persistent or obstinant has something to prove. They have some deep-seated feeling that they need to demonstrate something to their community, a sense that maybe their value is in some ways conditional on what they provide. Content people who feel a…
Since I'm seeing people repeat the mistake, I'd like to point out that it's obstinate.
Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn
#135I wish this article hit on an important point: when should the persistent quit? We all know we should know when to hold and when to fold, but in practice that's a hard decision to make especially when we're invested. And someone who is "persistent" vs "obstinate" should be able to do this: quit when it's right to do so. The closest thing he mentions is this, "persistence often requires that one change one's mind. Tha…
For me he touches on this here:
“One thing that distinguishes the persistent is their energy. At the risk of putting too much weight on words, they persist rather than merely resisting. They keep trying things. Which means the persistent must also be imaginative. To keep trying things, you have to keep thinking of things to try.”
If you have ideas on what else to try, you persist. If not, maybe time to move on or risk it becoming obstinance.
Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn
#136I like this article a lot. I think a lot of the distinction between persistence and obstinance comes down to identity, attachment, and self esteem. Almost everyone who is persistent or obstinant has something to prove. They have some deep-seated feeling that they need to demonstrate something to their community, a sense that maybe their value is in some ways conditional on what they provide. Content people who feel a…
Bob,
Since you’re the GPP author - as someone who recently published a Steam title and has glowing community reviews, I wish your comment was the article.
pg just doesn’t do it for me. It’s a nonsensical word salad of half-baked conjectures and aphorisms. There’s nothing to discuss because there’s nothing thought provoking in there.
I am however glad it spurred you to write something worth reading (again).
Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn
#137PG's distinction between persistent and obstinate is pretty much captured by the ideas of growth mindset and fixed mindset in psychology. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/growth-mindset My question is always, how do you get someone with a more fixed mindset attitude to adopt a growth mindset way of relating to the world? It's so hard, but it makes such a difference.
I became aware of this quite recently (on this site too IIRC), but it's worth noting that the "growth mindset" findings of the last several decades haven't quite panned out or been replicable upon further review: https://matheducators.stackexchange.com/questions/24418/are-... I agree the Persistent / Obstinate paradigm seems quite similar, and if anything for those reasons I'm inclined to be (obstinately :P) skeptica…
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Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn
#138I like this article a lot. I think a lot of the distinction between persistence and obstinance comes down to identity, attachment, and self esteem. Almost everyone who is persistent or obstinant has something to prove. They have some deep-seated feeling that they need to demonstrate something to their community, a sense that maybe their value is in some ways conditional on what they provide. Content people who feel a…
Having someone close who is obstinate makes the article very relatable (my father, talking him into something is like to talking to a stone, no matter how convincing you are and even if he seems to budge, it will take just a single moment to spring back).
For me this line "The persistent are attached to the goal. The obstinate are attached to their ideas about how to reach it." explained what's going on but the article doesn't seem to provide a solution (I know that's not the point). Now you say it's related to insecurity and it makes sense in my case and looks like a probable root cause. Something that can be worked on. But that's one sample, now I want to know if all stubborn / obstinate people like that are insecure.
Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's an old anecdote where I think Pascal, but I'm not sure, argued the existence or non-existence of God in front of the king with another philosopher. Maybe-Pascal exclaimed loudly and with great confidence "A plus C equal B squared! Therefore God exists! COUNTER!" The other philosopher didn't know much about mathematics, had no idea to reply, got flustered, and "lost" the argument.[1] And honestly, I'm not sure…
Why are NFTs dumb? How can I buy a digital asset sold by an artist?
However you want, but you can’t prevent it being copied or made “ununique” in any “real” way. Or somehow have control over the means by which it is consumed or produced.
Many places make money off of digital assets, but there’s no pretext of it somehow being scarce.
Re: The Right Kind of Stubborn
#140Reminds me of http://www.foundersatwork.com/blog/what-goes-wrong by Jessica Livingston