"AI", students, and epistemic crisis • Hacker News Board

Re: "AI", students, and epistemic crisis

#131

Post by disqard » Sun, Jul 07, 2024, 9:21 PM UTC

ballenf wrote: post #77

sieste wrote: post #23

Like probably many people here I still remember having to find facts in books in libraries, before the internet made this skill mostly redundant. Then, as a student I remember having to put together facts from various (internet) sources into a coherent narrative. Now chatbots can just generate text and that skill seems less valuable. I use both the internet and GenAI extensively now. But I feel that having gone throu…

Makes me wonder how someone would have found the answers before the printing press. Write to or visit the most knowledgeable person you could get an introduction to or who would answer you? Then go to their contacts or recommendations? Then draw a conclusion from all the responses? And even this scenario assumes a working postal system, availability of paper and pen. But if you didn't have those, you may not have hea…

Before the printing press, access to "knowledge" was through designated privileged members of society -- priests, etc.

Few (if any) "laypeople" did their own research, as you and I understand it today.

Re: "AI", students, and epistemic crisis

#132

Post by wholinator2 » Sun, Jul 07, 2024, 9:24 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #119

sieste wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current LLMs are lacking introspection, plausibility checking, consulting external sources, and belief updating in the presence of new evidence. All of these you'd need to replace human teachers and it's not clear that the next token prediction paradigm can ever emulate these features reliably. So "outperforming teachers", while not impossible, is a very optimistic expectation as it requires more than mere improvemen…

Maybe I was particularly unfortunate, but none of my human teachers had any of those features. There was one inviolable source of truth in my classrooms - the examination syllabus and the accompanying textbook.

That's sad. Probably you were particularly unfortunate. Though i definitely do know people who echo your sentiment. I'm wondering at what level of education this occurred? A 2nd grade teacher requires a different set of introspection capabilities than a high school calculus teacher than a college world history class. Possibly I'm particularly fortunate but at all levels i have at least had experienced with teachers that had the proper introspection. Emotional introspection and reflection in grade school and high school. And academic introspection and curiosity in high school and college. Certainly there are some bad eggs, but my small state school was rife with professors there for the love of learning. Our learning and theirs.

Re: "AI", students, and epistemic crisis

#133

Post by Ferret7446 » Sun, Jul 07, 2024, 10:48 PM UTC

mrcartmeneses wrote: post #29

sieste wrote: post #23

Like probably many people here I still remember having to find facts in books in libraries, before the internet made this skill mostly redundant. Then, as a student I remember having to put together facts from various (internet) sources into a coherent narrative. Now chatbots can just generate text and that skill seems less valuable. I use both the internet and GenAI extensively now. But I feel that having gone throu…

It’s something reflected in the conversations I have with my academic friends. I’m told that every essay is written in the same “voice” and that although they are usually a simulacra of an academic paper, they say nothing. The sad part comes when we reflect that these students are not learning the deep thinking skills that comes with academic writing

I have a related anecdote. When I grew up, we had page and/or word requirements on essays. I was always under the requirement after I wrote everything I needed to, so I learned to pad my writing to hit the requirement.

Terse prose was a "lost art" even in my generation (millenial-ish) and I'm not surprised that it has gotten worse.

Re: "AI", students, and epistemic crisis

#134

Post by JohnKemeny » Tue, Jul 09, 2024, 7:07 AM UTC

i_am_proteus wrote: post #14

I've seen this happen, too, including student incredulity that ChatGPT can be wrong, and recalcitrance when guided to find proper sources. Up to the point of arguing for a higher grade based on the correctness of LLM output.

One thing is correctness, another thing is that GPTs can output long passages of copyrighted work verbatim, and users risk unknowingly submitting plagiarized work.

Re: "AI", students, and epistemic crisis

#135

Post by unraveller » Tue, Jul 09, 2024, 10:25 AM UTC

Every teaching moment is also a learning moment. Asking kids to refrain from wanting tiny bits of assistance at hand in tough times is tantamount to asking them to lie or accept a poorer grade as others do cheat the whole hog undetected. Human's crave ease. Education promises an easier adulthood and it is no way clear you can provide it by legacy regurgitation means.

Re: "AI", students, and epistemic crisis

#136

Post by tomhoward » Tue, Jul 09, 2024, 1:01 PM UTC

deadbabe wrote: post #121

tomhoward wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it’s the opposite; kids need to learn that LLM’s can bullshit just like every other person and institution can bullshit, and the most important skill they can have is verification of information, no matter where it’s coming from.

If everybody bullshits what is the point of not bullshitting yourself?

A more satisfying life, better life outcomes.