My experiences at a woman's programming workshop • Hacker News Board

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#131

Post by roel_v » Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 8:06 PM UTC

mrleinad wrote: post #18

jellicle wrote: post #11

That's not a call for single-sex education. That's a call for good teachers who are willing to crack down on the class clown. There's always a class clown, and he always needs to be cracked down upon for the good of the class. This is teaching 101. Sorry you didn't have a good teacher. >Dave was really excited by the class, and, like me and the other volunteers, had a lot of experience with Python. Sounds like Dave w…

> That's a learned technique for getting assistance. It worked on you, didn't it? I was going to point out the same thing. A women playing dumb to get help from a man, is not uncommon at all.

I met my (now) wife at work, the first couple of months I worked there she'd call me at least once a week in the morning complaining that her mouse or keyboard didn't work, and if I'd please come over to have a look. Invariably I'd just crawl under the desk, plug in the mouse/keyboard, and things would work again; she'd go 'oh thanks, must've been the cleaning crew who hit it! I'll try to remember for next time!'. Anyway after a while we started dating and one night after a few beers she confessed that she used to just unplug the mouse or keyboard so that I would have to get on hands and knees to get under the desk, that way she could check out my butt to start her day.

Just thought I'd share my tales of sexual harassment in the workplace, seemed relevant ;)

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#132

Post by roel_v » Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 8:10 PM UTC

lotharbot wrote: post #89

Udo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it has to do with the response, but I can't agree with the main point of it which is due to selection bias I think (not gender differences): To me, and I suspect most men, we’d see Dave’s behavior as a call to arms. Dave was raising the stakes and even though his behavior was clearly rude, it also demonstrated that he had a mastery over the material. If this is the core of the article's point, I don't agree with…

I'm wondering if Dave was actually guilty of what he's been accused of, or if his behavior was misinterpreted. In college and grad school I was usually the guy asking advanced questions, not because I was trying to show off or be a jerk, but because I was trying to gain a particular level of mastery of the material, and the way I gain that mastery is to ask questions during the process of absorbing the material. I ga…

Yeah if you ask questions that are way more advanced than the material being covered or the level of the other students, you probably were a net negative on the class. Class settings work only if everybody is at roughly the same level, so that you can all improve at the same rate. One person taking up a disproportional amount of time is being rather selfish, which is generally regarded as a negative thing in most circumstances.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#133

Post by microarchitect » Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 9:16 PM UTC

ClHans wrote: post #94

Dear HNers, Gender bias is a touchy subject in these tech blogs and the responses to this (yet another) article are, predictably, dismissive. It was one person's fault, there's no widespread gender bias, the instructor should have things differently, someone has seen women be jerks too, etc. So while there really does seem to be a measurable, observable difference in gender involvement in computing (e.g. in CS enroll…

I'm glad you brought this up. I suspect that someone is going to pipe up and say we need more than "just anecdotal evidence" or something similar. On the face of it, this would seem like a reasonable reply.

Except, I remember when PG said something bizarre about writing being a more important skill than speaking based on his anecdotal experiences of listening to good presenters (!) and everybody here loved it. Certainly nobody asked for data and the most upvoted comments weren't critical of the article.

Pretty much the same thing happened when patio11 wrote a huge document with "advice" for young engineers which as far as I could make out, were based on little more than his experiences making a few bucks selling software on the internet. He too had bizarre advice; for instance, don't go to graduate school. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know if this is good or bad advice. But, even if you buy into the premise of many HNers that anything other than a billion-dollar "exit" is a failure, going to grad school certainly worked out well for Sergei and Larry. Again, I don't remember any comments asking for data supporting patio11's assertions. Everybody just lapped it up.

Now I'm not trying to diss either PG or patio11. These guys have been "successful" and perhaps what they have to say could be useful to others here. That said, I've been watching threads on gender issues on HN for about two years now, and I definitely believe that these articles are held to different standards than all the other articles here.

I also see highly upvoted ragingly misogynistic articles. I remember one by a east-european developer literally saying that he would never hire women because they could potentially get pregnant (you can't make this shit up!). I'm sad to say nobody asked for data in that instance either and instead circlejerked about how women are not cut out for the startup lifestyle.

Sorry about the long rant, but I'll conclude by saying that it was these startling examples of misogyny and sexism over here that make me reluctant to comment any more. I actually want to delete my account but it turns out you need to e-mail PG for this and even then your comments won't be deleted. If I'd known about this when I signed up, I would never have made an account.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#134

Post by Tichy » Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 9:29 PM UTC

ClHans wrote: post #94

Dear HNers, Gender bias is a touchy subject in these tech blogs and the responses to this (yet another) article are, predictably, dismissive. It was one person's fault, there's no widespread gender bias, the instructor should have things differently, someone has seen women be jerks too, etc. So while there really does seem to be a measurable, observable difference in gender involvement in computing (e.g. in CS enroll…

I would guess a lot of developers are self taught. At least for me it is somewhat difficult to believe that there should be gender bias in sitting down alone with a book and a computer.

Perhaps a lot of people who are also self taught feel in a similar way, hence the typical reactions on HN.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#135

Post by nars » Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 9:44 PM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #129

lotharbot wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you making an independent observation (ie, you were at the workshop and observed Dave) or repeating what was in the writeup? Also, I'm genuinely curious: how do you tell the difference? What's the difference between Dave's (presumed) "stump the instructor to validate ego" questions and my "push the edges of my understanding, which may happen to stump the instructor if they haven't thought about it, and which may…

It sounds to me (someone with a fair amount of teaching experience) like Dave was an enthusiastic student. Without seeing a transcript or video, it seems more likely Dave had a lot of things he wasn't clear on regarding Python and was excited to have a chance to ask an expert (the teacher) a lot of questions to clarify his understanding. In a basic intro class, this can be a problem because other students will start…

Without seeing a transcript or video...

Or actually paying attention the article, apparently. "Poor Curious Dave" was a VOLUNTEER at the workshop. Just like the author of the article, Dave's purpose being there was to assist the students of the workshop with the projects (presumably, or to assist in some other capacity).

Maybe Dave thought his questions and comments would help clarify or improve the instructor's content...but on the other hand I really don't find the article author's evaluation of Dave as just a showoff/bully much of a stretch. I assumed that we've all seen this behavior tons of times and that it is pretty obvious when someone is being "That Guy" versus trying to clarify or expand on the material for themselves or others.

The fact that quite a few here are eager to challenge the author's evaluation of Dave and jump to Dave's defense is...funny, I guess.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#136

Post by rogerbraun » Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 9:51 PM UTC

NotMyMorals wrote: post #106

rogerbraun wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. They should be separate but equal.

They should be separate but equal. The horror - they even have segregated bathrooms!

This is actually something I think will go away once we manage to overcome sexism in society. There is really no reason for it at all.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#137

Post by ktizo » Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 10:54 PM UTC

Stuff like this is required, not because there are problems with programmers, or even with education, or men, or women, stuff like this is required because of wider problems in our society as a whole.

When most people have some level of general respect beyond clannishness, is when things like this will no longer be required. Personally, I'm not holding my breath.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#138

Post by prodigal_erik » Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 11:39 PM UTC

cema wrote: post #103

lotharbot wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we also need to be willing to set people straight without ascribing bad motivations to them. Maybe Dave isn't a jerk or a showoff. Maybe he is like me. I learn by asking questions during the learning process. I feel like I'm not really learning very well unless I can say "does this material imply this other conclusion?" or "if we extended this to more dimensions, would we just have to change these things, or…

I have learned (hopefully learned!) to only use this style of learning when I am one-on-one with an instructor, and never in a classroom full of peer students. Even then, not every instructor (or a person who effectively serves as an instructor) can stand this. Here I have to trust my people's judgement and sometimes I do misjudge. I recall one of my colleagues and coworkers with whom I could not maintain a meaningfu…

I see probing questions as the sole justification of the classroom format. If I'm to merely sit and listen, I'd much rather have either a good text or a recording of a professionally produced lecture to watch at my own pace.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#139

Post by technomancy » Sun, Jun 10, 2012, 1:15 AM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #134

ClHans wrote: post #94

Dear HNers, Gender bias is a touchy subject in these tech blogs and the responses to this (yet another) article are, predictably, dismissive. It was one person's fault, there's no widespread gender bias, the instructor should have things differently, someone has seen women be jerks too, etc. So while there really does seem to be a measurable, observable difference in gender involvement in computing (e.g. in CS enroll…

I would guess a lot of developers are self taught. At least for me it is somewhat difficult to believe that there should be gender bias in sitting down alone with a book and a computer. Perhaps a lot of people who are also self taught feel in a similar way, hence the typical reactions on HN.

"Self taught" is a relative term. Very few people learn in pure isolation; most of the time it means "not in a classroom." Mailing lists, friends, and IRC are extremely helpful to learners, and thus social dynamics nearly always have a role to play.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#140

Post by rhizome » Sun, Jun 10, 2012, 1:18 AM UTC

irahul wrote: post #120

NotMyMorals wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe that all females(or males) exhibit same behavioral and learning traits. I don't see anyone suggesting such a thing, but instead, that the majority of each gender may have certain behavior and learning styles in common. And even if this happens to be true, then why stop at gender-segregation? Why go any further? Just because one type of segregation may work, doesn't mean that all types of seg…

> I don't see anyone suggesting such a thing, but instead, that the majority of each gender may have certain behavior and learning styles in common. Unless you can prove that certain behavior is common among majority of females, and that certain common behavior is more significant than bazillion traits which are not shared, and then that certain behavior is significant to learning, and is more important than traits w…

You're demanding hard conclusions where there aren't any. However, they can be said to exhibit a tendency where the chances aren't exactly 100%. It's the difference between correlation and causation, and correlation is not "meaningless."