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Are animals conscious? New research

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Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#131

Post by mi3law »

lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

What you explain here also explains the current problems in AGI research. sigh Humans keep thinking that reality, like the sun once did, revolves around them.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#132

Post by goatlover »

qarl wrote: post #67
throwup238 wrote: post #38

> We now know that bees can count, recognise human faces and learn how to use tools. I was curious what that means in this context and found this research (co-authored by Prof Chittka mentioned in the article): https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou... Apparently only a small minority of bumble bees can figure out how to pull a string to access a reward, but then other bees adopt the behavior by…

> IMO I think we're doomed to move the goalposts on intelligence for a while I'm old enough to remember back when we thought language was the defining element of intelligence. Dogs can't talk - dogs aren't intelligent. Now LLMs can talk, and we've shifted intelligence to mean animal intelligence - being able to predict the motion of a falling ball, wanting to protect your children, etc. Some people truly cannot toler…

There is some conflation between consciousness and intelligence going on. Consciousness is subjective experiences. Intelligence is cognitive ability. There isn’t a necessary link between the two. We can say LLMs are intelligent but not conscious. We could say a lizard is conscious but not that intelligent.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#133

Post by goatlover »

reso wrote: post #65

We need to ban the word "conscious" until people can agree on what it means. That being said, its obvious to me that many animals have similar emotional complexity to humans, and many outperform humans on some cognitive tasks. Humans have complex language, and that's about it, to separate us from other animals.

There is a philosophical definition. Our sensations which make up perception, dreams, imagination. Or subjective experience.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#134

Post by andoando »

qarl wrote: post #67
throwup238 wrote: post #38

> We now know that bees can count, recognise human faces and learn how to use tools. I was curious what that means in this context and found this research (co-authored by Prof Chittka mentioned in the article): https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou... Apparently only a small minority of bumble bees can figure out how to pull a string to access a reward, but then other bees adopt the behavior by…

> IMO I think we're doomed to move the goalposts on intelligence for a while I'm old enough to remember back when we thought language was the defining element of intelligence. Dogs can't talk - dogs aren't intelligent. Now LLMs can talk, and we've shifted intelligence to mean animal intelligence - being able to predict the motion of a falling ball, wanting to protect your children, etc. Some people truly cannot toler…

I still feel like animal intelligence is completely downplayed.

Dog's can learn new environments and tasks. The simple act of recognizing what a door is and how they work takes quite a bit of intelligence.

As far as I can see, AI still can't make a robotic dog.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#135

Post by slowmovintarget »

slibhb wrote: post #120
lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

> The only reason why animal consciousness has been controversial historically is a religious one—the Bible has typically been read as placing humanity in a category of its own. And yet we see countless secular scientists clinging to that perspective when even a cursory glance at the evidence and a basic application of Occam's razor would suggest the opposite. It's not just the Bible. It's virtually every religion an…

I reject panpsychism on the grounds of the Standard Model.

There are no possible fields at the energy levels we've explored that could have an effect such as panpsychism claims (and fields at any other energy levels couldn't have such an effect). Sean Carroll published a paper on this, and it's worth a read, as is his draft response to Phillip Goff. [1], [2]

[1] The Quantum Field Theory on Which the Everyday World Supervenes: https://arxiv.org/abs/2101.07884

[2] Consciousness and the Laws of Physics: https://philarchive.org/archive/CARCAT-33

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#136

Post by npteljes »

jraph wrote: post #36

It doesn't take a genius to notice animals are conscious. Only to prove it and convince their human peers that this is the case. I guess.

I mean, same with gravity, right? In ascending order of complexity, noticing gravity, using gravity for benefit, and explaining gravity are orders of magnitude different.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#137

Post by slowmovintarget »

lolinder wrote: post #128
slibhb wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only reason why animal consciousness has been controversial historically is a religious one—the Bible has typically been read as placing humanity in a category of its own. And yet we see countless secular scientists clinging to that perspective when even a cursory glance at the evidence and a basic application of Occam's razor would suggest the opposite. It's not just the Bible. It's virtually every religion an…

> I reject panpsychism as going against common sense; I think there probably are very simple (read: small) animals that aren't conscious. Yes, I can definitely agree with this. I'm more reacting to the idea that it's somehow an unresolved scientific question whether dogs and cats and other mammals have emotions. There isn't a sufficiently large difference in neurology between humans and other mammals for me to believ…

Dogs definitely have Theory of Mind. There was a study done that placed a treat in a room where the dog was instructed not to eat it. A handler was in the room with the dog. When the lights were turned out, the dogs would eat the treat, because they knew that the human couldn't see in the dark.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#138

Post by npteljes »

ilaksh wrote: post #2

This doesn't add up to me. The majority of scientists really thought that animals didn't feel or experience things? That can't be true for scientists that actually observed animals. I can see how there might some type of conflict with a dualist or religious view of the soul though. But not a scientific conflict.

>The majority of scientists really thought that animals didn't feel or experience things?

I can buy it.

"As recently as 1999, it was widely believed by medical professionals that babies could not feel pain until they were a year old, but today it is believed newborns and likely even fetuses beyond a certain age can experience pain"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_babies

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#139

Post by goatlover »

salesynerd wrote: post #5

I sometimes think that animistic belief - objects, places, and creatures all possess a distinct spiritual essence - is more respectful of the ecosystem than some of the modern ones. Lots of ancient cultures, across the globe, tried to live in harmony with their natural environments. I wish that we can go back to that stage.

To what extent did they really, or was it more low impact for smaller tribal groups? There’s plenty of examples of civilization with roads, waterways and larger buildings in the Americas prior to the Europeans. Same for most of the rest of the world. Humans cleared areas with fire, they damned rivers, and built cities.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#140

Post by orwin »

reso wrote: post #65

We need to ban the word "conscious" until people can agree on what it means. That being said, its obvious to me that many animals have similar emotional complexity to humans, and many outperform humans on some cognitive tasks. Humans have complex language, and that's about it, to separate us from other animals.

> We need to ban the word "conscious" until people can agree on what it means.

In modern philosophy, it ultimately mean self-awareness, if i read Chalmers correctly. Which is hard to prove (we do have mirror tests that only some animal pass, which prove they do have self-awareness, but failure to understand it doesn't mean the animal isn't self-aware, as young children also sometime fail the mirror test when left alone in front of it).

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