Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#131

Post by CUR10US » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 7:47 PM UTC

Anything that cannot boot from USB, SD card, or some externally connected media, should be approached with caution.

If you can boot from external media, then generally you can dual boot. Someone may have to show you how to prepare media for booting, but it's quite easy once you have been shown. Today's PC's all seem to have good support for booting from external media. Are we going to see this removed in ARM devices?

You do not have to shop for devices that have an "open" bootloader. You have to shop for devices that can boot from external media. (For today's PC's, that's quite easy.) If you have a device that can boot from external media, we can show how to do the rest.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#132

Post by gioele » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 8:25 PM UTC

mjg59 wrote: post #123

gioele wrote: post #115

Maybe it is the right time to make all this rage converge into contributions to coreboot [1]. A free working alternative is the only practical way out of this future kind of subjection. Google has already contributed core for some current Ivy Bridge chipsets. It would be nice if coreboot received more testing and development from a broader audience. [1] http://coreboot.org

The problem is not the availability of a free alternative. Hardware vendors could already simply choose not to implement secure boot - the default policy is a single configurable switch during the build. The problem is that vendors believe they can make more money by selling hardware that meets Microsoft's requirements. Coreboot doesn't do anything to help there.

> Hardware vendors could already simply choose not to implement secure boot

You are right, but if we had an easily installable coreboot we could just ignore whatever comes with the computer and just flash coreboot over the existing firmware.

This is basically what Linux people have been doing with Windows in the past twenty years: see that Windows is preinstalled, boot a CD, overwrite the partition table, install distro. But this was possible because in most cases the distro you chose was ready to be installed on a whatever computer you had; the same cannot be said of coreboot.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#133

Post by jiggy2011 » Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 12:41 AM UTC

tjoff wrote: post #87

amalcon wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your router probably is running Linux already. Most commodity routers do.

You guys are completely missing my point. Even though my router might be an arm-computer that runs linux - I can't even run linux on the damn thing (that binary blob that is shipped with the router could be any OS for I care, it's not as if my experience will be any better or worse if runs linux or DOS when everything is locked down and all I get access to is a simple webserver with an administrative page on)... Just…

"But now I bought a router and the manufacturer of that router has no obligation not trying make my life a living hell for even attempting to control my curtains with it."

really? You would have no objections to the router manufacturer trying to make your life a "living hell"?

For the most part manufacturers don't really care about people re purposing their devices for other goals unless it potentially leaves them legally liable for something (e.g a children's toy with small parts being repurposed as food).

People naturally re-purpose things all the time, for example using a bank note to do cocaine , an AOL CD as a coaster , a newspaper or deodorant to kill a wasp etc etc.

In fact a huge amount of human innovation comes from taking an existing thing and using it for something else, going back as far as the original hunters who took tree branches and used them to kill dinner.

The critical thing about computers is that their entire reason for existence is to be repurposed, a computer on it's own is useless.

What we in the software industry are in the business of doing is finding ways to repurpose computers and their entire appeal is that this is so easily done.

I would hate to live in a world where everything has one discreet purpose regardless of it's physical abilities, for example imagine having to purchase a separate TV for every channel you wish to watch.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#134

Post by mjg59 » Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 3:26 AM UTC

gioele wrote: post #132

mjg59 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not the availability of a free alternative. Hardware vendors could already simply choose not to implement secure boot - the default policy is a single configurable switch during the build. The problem is that vendors believe they can make more money by selling hardware that meets Microsoft's requirements. Coreboot doesn't do anything to help there.

> Hardware vendors could already simply choose not to implement secure boot You are right, but if we had an easily installable coreboot we could just ignore whatever comes with the computer and just flash coreboot over the existing firmware. This is basically what Linux people have been doing with Windows in the past twenty years: see that Windows is preinstalled, boot a CD, overwrite the partition table, install dis…

> You are right, but if we had an easily installable coreboot we could just ignore whatever comes with the computer and just flash coreboot over the existing firmware.

No, you couldn't. The move to secure boot means that firmware updates are signed, because otherwise you could disable secure boot simply by pushing out a fake firmware update.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#135

Post by gioele » Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 2:10 PM UTC

mjg59 wrote: post #134

gioele wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hardware vendors could already simply choose not to implement secure boot You are right, but if we had an easily installable coreboot we could just ignore whatever comes with the computer and just flash coreboot over the existing firmware. This is basically what Linux people have been doing with Windows in the past twenty years: see that Windows is preinstalled, boot a CD, overwrite the partition table, install dis…

> You are right, but if we had an easily installable coreboot we could just ignore whatever comes with the computer and just flash coreboot over the existing firmware. No, you couldn't. The move to secure boot means that firmware updates are signed, because otherwise you could disable secure boot simply by pushing out a fake firmware update.

> The move to secure boot means that firmware updates are signed

Does this mean that flashrom will no longer be usable? Not even on boards that allow disabling secure boot?

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#136

Post by Havoc » Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 3:10 PM UTC

pooriaazimi wrote: post #113

Havoc wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can choose Microsoft isn't known for playing nice & allowing competitors to compete fairly. So yes there will be choice, but relying on that as a justification is pretty risky imo. Esp considering MS's standard MO and history.

I hate MS just as the next guy. But Open Thinking (tm) people should no seek freedom (as in speech) through restricting other's (namely, MS) freedom. They have the right to do what they feel like, and we have the choice whether or not to buy them. (I'm not being snarky)

>They have the right to do what they feel like

Not when they have the market power to influence the market in a manner that restricts the freedoms of everybody else.

I get that ideally everybody should be allowed to do what they want, but that approach is no good when you're dealing with a company that effectively has a monopoly.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#137

Post by recoiledsnake » Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 4:08 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #114

recoiledsnake wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if Microsoft bought up Nokia or HTC and made their own Windows RT tablets, people will be better off with no hardware choice like with iOS and there would be no complaining here? If a company wants to enhance competition between its hardware partners and a hardware choice to the public, they should be forced to not license it on their own terms?

So, now, Microsoft wants to "enhance" competition by making Windows 8 only devices that cannot be upgraded to a non-Microsoft OS. That's an interesting interpretation of "enhancing".

Lets say a new company called "Cranapple" comes along and releases a new locked down tablet CranPad into the market with their own custom locked down proprietary OS.

Does this act enhance the competition in the tablet market? Serious question.