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Viral DNA in the human genome linked to major psychiatric disorders

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Re: Viral DNA in the human genome linked to major psychiatric disorders

#131

Post by lkrubner »

_ywdj wrote: post #125
lkrubner wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Various illnesses are caused by promoter genes. These are genes that serve no purpose but they specialize in promoting themselves, so they spread through a population even though they serve no evolutionary fitness goal (often they bring illness). A good book on that topic: Genes in Conflict: The Biology of Selfish Genetic Elements by Austin Burt and Robert Trivers https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674027221/ However…

This feels like a just-so story. There are perfectly plausible reasons why the conditions we regard as mental illness are adaptations that help evolutionary fitness: - Depression puts one into a low-energy, contemplative state that enables reflection, healing and formulation of reformed ways of thinking and being ("dark night of the soul"); - Bipiolar is a pattern of swinging between high-energy bursts of inspiration…

"according to evolutionary theory"

Promoter genes are also part of evolutionary theory. You seem to think evolutionary theory came to an end in 1882. But a lot has happened since then.

Re: Viral DNA in the human genome linked to major psychiatric disorders

#132

Post by zdragnar »

richardlblair wrote: post #107
zdragnar wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depression is fundamentally different than being sad about things. Trauma can trigger it, but not by merely being sad. That's the whole point of antidepressant medication. It alleviates symptoms in someone who is sick, but otherwise has no effect on someone who is healthy.

Antidepressants have the same odds of making someone better than making them worse. Trauma, especially childhood trauma related to primary attachment figures can absolutely cause depression. CBT has the same impact on the brain as antidepressants after only 3 months (assuming the cient is committed to CBT, most don't follow through). Not being loved by a primary attachment figure doesn't just make people sad. It caus…

No one antidepressant works for everyone. Most often, it's a matter of patience while you try various ones.

Most of the SSRIs were less than worthless for me, though finding the one that worked was life changing.

> CBT has the same impact on the brain as antidepressants after only 3 months (assuming the cient is committed to CBT, most don't follow through).

That's just another way of saying that CBT doesn't work for everyone. People following through for three months is a very self-selecting subgroup.

Re: Viral DNA in the human genome linked to major psychiatric disorders

#133

Post by labrador »

richardlblair wrote: post #110
labrador wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone diagnosed with bipolar disorder your comment hit me in a way that made me very angry. Don't insult my father like that.

I'm not insulting your father, and I'm sorry it came across that way. I was insulting mine.

I get that now. I had to absorb a lot of similar anger from my son before he trusted that I really wanted to make things better.

Re: Viral DNA in the human genome linked to major psychiatric disorders

#134

Post by richardlblair »

zdragnar wrote: post #132
richardlblair wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antidepressants have the same odds of making someone better than making them worse. Trauma, especially childhood trauma related to primary attachment figures can absolutely cause depression. CBT has the same impact on the brain as antidepressants after only 3 months (assuming the cient is committed to CBT, most don't follow through). Not being loved by a primary attachment figure doesn't just make people sad. It caus…

No one antidepressant works for everyone. Most often, it's a matter of patience while you try various ones. Most of the SSRIs were less than worthless for me, though finding the one that worked was life changing. > CBT has the same impact on the brain as antidepressants after only 3 months (assuming the cient is committed to CBT, most don't follow through). That's just another way of saying that CBT doesn't work for…

I'll rephrase - CBT has the same impact on the brain as antidepressants when they work, after only 3 months.

And of course you have to follow through. No treatment work without follow through.

I'm glad you found an SSRI that works for you. It's great when that happens. That said, being on the wrong SSRI can cost a life. Being that they are effective as often as they are ineffective, they need to be perscribed with care. Care that is not taken.

Long term treatment plans should centre around psychotherapy. SSRIs can offer some assistance, but again, the risks are too high and people end up on them for far too long. If you want to change your brain, it takes focused intentional work. Therapy is great for that.

Re: Viral DNA in the human genome linked to major psychiatric disorders

#135

Post by _ywdj »

lkrubner wrote: post #131
_ywdj wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like a just-so story. There are perfectly plausible reasons why the conditions we regard as mental illness are adaptations that help evolutionary fitness: - Depression puts one into a low-energy, contemplative state that enables reflection, healing and formulation of reformed ways of thinking and being ("dark night of the soul"); - Bipiolar is a pattern of swinging between high-energy bursts of inspiration…

"according to evolutionary theory" Promoter genes are also part of evolutionary theory. You seem to think evolutionary theory came to an end in 1882. But a lot has happened since then.

First, I don’t know why you feel the need to include a hostile ad hom barb like “You seem to think evolutionary theory came to an end in 1882”.

I’ve done multiple Google searches and even done Google Books searches in the very book you linked, for the exact phrase “promoter gene”, and it really doesn’t seem to be a term that’s used, at all, really.

DNA promoters are well recognized, but not in the context you’re talking about.

I can very much understand the notion that genes may act to further their own propagation at the cost of the host’s fitness - sure.

It’s just that we first need to see evidence that it’s happening, by having a clear definition of what favours vs costs the host’s fitness.

The hypothesis you’ve cited (and from the book reviews it seems even the authors concede their hypotheses are highly speculative), seems to start with the assumption that these mental illness traits are opposed to the host’s fitness and confer no benefits whatsoever.

But all we have to do is point out the many cases in which these traits actually do benefit the host, which I did and you even conceded in the last line of your comment, and the hypothesis is void.

It reminds me of the “junk DNA” hypothesis, where researchers couldn’t find an obvious use for large sections of the genome so just assumed it to be useless and called it “junk”, only to be later found to have very important roles:

https://medicine.yale.edu/news/yale-medicine-magazine/articl...

https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-complex-truth-about-junk-...

Re: Viral DNA in the human genome linked to major psychiatric disorders

#136

Post by dailykoder »

richardlblair wrote: post #108
dailykoder wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crazy hypothesis: What if it ain't that simple?

In what sense? The DNA or my Daddy? Because legit, my father was an acholohic and generally absent. It really fucked me up.

Both. Sure we make huge progress in depression research and brain research in general, but there are so many environmental things happening, like yours for example, so just saying "oh yeah depression comes from that DNA" or "yeah that's just from your trauma. A lil therapy will heal everything" is just a bit short sigthed. So yeah, just saying that it's all very complex and we shouldn't really try to reduce this beast of a disease down to anything, because everyone has a different story. In the end I was just a little sarcastic, sorry

Re: Viral DNA in the human genome linked to major psychiatric disorders

#137

Post by richardlblair »

dailykoder wrote: post #136
richardlblair wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what sense? The DNA or my Daddy? Because legit, my father was an acholohic and generally absent. It really fucked me up.

Both. Sure we make huge progress in depression research and brain research in general, but there are so many environmental things happening, like yours for example, so just saying "oh yeah depression comes from that DNA" or "yeah that's just from your trauma. A lil therapy will heal everything" is just a bit short sigthed. So yeah, just saying that it's all very complex and we shouldn't really try to reduce this beas…

Honestly, I appreciate the sarcasm. It's a serious topic, and personally I like lighten the tone. It makes it easier to talk about.

I fully agree with your perspective. Being a human is hard.

Re: Viral DNA in the human genome linked to major psychiatric disorders

#138

Post by IggleSniggle »

nullindividual wrote: post #98
IggleSniggle wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, a mania in the context of a major hunt or battle could really drive a tribe, I think, both in their mania and a lack of fear of death.

"You don't know" is damn straight. Thinking mania can be controlled like an on-off switch. Why even bother posting?

Obviously I don't think it can be turned on-off, why would you even think that I was suggesting that? It's just easy for me to imagine these scenarios triggering mania in me whether I wanted it to or not, and I don't think I'm that unusual, that's all.

Re: Viral DNA in the human genome linked to major psychiatric disorders

#139

Post by nullindividual »

IggleSniggle wrote: post #138
nullindividual wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You don't know" is damn straight. Thinking mania can be controlled like an on-off switch. Why even bother posting?

Obviously I don't think it can be turned on-off, why would you even think that I was suggesting that? It's just easy for me to imagine these scenarios triggering mania in me whether I wanted it to or not, and I don't think I'm that unusual, that's all.

No, that's not how [hypo]mania works. You can 'imagine' all you want, but thinking that a specific scenario or time is when [hypo]mania 'lights up' is flat out incorrect.

And someone who experiences mania indicates an uncontrolled illness. Depression and mania prevent normal functioning. You seem to believe an unmedicated bipolar individual is a functional individual with some inkling of rational thought that could 'go into battle with no fear'.

If you don't know, don't post. And you don't know.

Re: Viral DNA in the human genome linked to major psychiatric disorders

#140

Post by IggleSniggle »

nullindividual wrote: post #139
IggleSniggle wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously I don't think it can be turned on-off, why would you even think that I was suggesting that? It's just easy for me to imagine these scenarios triggering mania in me whether I wanted it to or not, and I don't think I'm that unusual, that's all.

No, that's not how [hypo]mania works. You can 'imagine' all you want, but thinking that a specific scenario or time is when [hypo]mania 'lights up' is flat out incorrect. And someone who experiences mania indicates an uncontrolled illness. Depression and mania prevent normal functioning. You seem to believe an unmedicated bipolar individual is a functional individual with some inkling of rational thought that could '…

Your statements about what you know about me and my lived experiences, and my level of knowledge of those experiences, is bizarrely cruel. Please do not do this. Please don't try to silence me just because those things don't match up with your own experiences.

I don't know where you are getting the notion that I am saying that mania is rational or controllable. I was speculating based on personal experience around high stress situations. I do not understand why you are choosing to attack the notion that there could be evolutionarily advantageous benefits conferred upon the group.

Edit: we agree that I am speculating. I disagree with you that I have no right to speculate

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