The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists • Hacker News Board

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#131

Post by bb88 » Wed, Apr 17, 2024, 6:57 PM UTC

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #122

mlhpdx wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an appealing narrative without evidence. I had the same thought, but I’m grateful to the author for putting their opinions out for us to see. It is an interesting quandary - getting “more” from someone, pragmatic or otherwise, raises questions. Is the premise that they aren’t providing value on a level with salary? Or, is it that the business has a right/obligation to extract more? The latter is offensive,…

Labor relations are intrinsically adversarial. The employer wants to pay as little as they can get away with for as much work as possible, the employee wants to be paid as much as possible for as little work as they can get away with. This article is written for the employer's side, trying to optimize their game. The employees trying to normalize working approximately nothing are optimizing their side. It's not offen…

Many employees are trying to minimize their work. (Do we really need to fill out 10 TPS reports that no one reads?) Often the ones who are doing the most menial tasks would definitely want to do something else more meaningful

Not everyone wants to work less. Many want a path to make an impact to the organization, but don't see how. They'd rather just be quiet engineers/accountants/office workers/etc.

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#132

Post by icedchai » Wed, Apr 17, 2024, 6:57 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #123

ryandrake wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this highly depends on the manager. Some know (Manager A), and either work to correct it, or get their ducks in a row to fire them. Plenty of managers, though, (Manager B) have no idea what a reasonable amount of work output is, and can be easily convinced that what took 1-2 hours to do constituted an entire 40 hour week. You get some developer who's good at "managing upward" and they'll bullshit/charm and wa…

I've been a manager and an employee and I've talked to many managers. They know who the slackers are, but there can be reasons why they take no action. When an opportunity arises to get rid of them, they do.

Yes. I've been specifically told that they are unable or unwilling to do anything about the slackers, but "understand the situation."

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#133

Post by cousin_it » Wed, Apr 17, 2024, 7:03 PM UTC

I think the root cause of why managers reward flashy employees over useful ones is because managers are clueless about the work itself. The more a manager understands the work, on a micro level, the more they'll be able to judge it accurately. Note that it doesn't mean micromanagement: you must understand the details, but stop yourself from second-guessing the employees on these details. And it doesn't mean you can't delegate: as long as you have intimate understanding of the details, you're free to delegate and be as hands-off as you want. In fact the best way to delegate is to learn to do the thing well yourself, then delegate it to someone and do occasional spot checks on them.

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#134

Post by Retric » Wed, Apr 17, 2024, 7:08 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #93

vkou wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless they are given meaningful equity, it's not their ship, and regardless of whether it is or isn't, unlike the shareholders and creditors, they won't be sinking with it. If you want worker interests to be even a little aligned with owner interests, the correct corporate structure is not an S corp, or a C corp, it is some flavor of worker co-op. And even then, it can't grow too big.

People get invested in their work. And there are a lot of software people who make their work part of their identity, and so when they are accused of doing bad work they take is as a personal attack.

Getting invested doesn’t mean your interests align. What’s best for your or the product can be different than what’s good for your boss, your company, your customers, or your teammates.

I used to document things in a way that would quickly get people up to speed, but was generally useless to current team members. Very useful if you where new or hadn’t touched the project in 3+ years, but no so helpful if you’ve been working on it for the last few months.

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#135

Post by rybosworld » Wed, Apr 17, 2024, 7:10 PM UTC

beeboobaa3 wrote: post #104

rybosworld wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You seem to be projecting a lot of insecurities. Interesting counter argument. > Those people just switch jobs until they're satisfied, there is no "controlling other people" This is exactly what I said in my comment, if you take the time to read it.

Yes, how did you go from > wisely chooses his employers to not end-up in such environments to > implies you have control over the other people that work at the company instead of just assuming they'll just leave?

Let me ask this:

Do you agree that a work environment/culture is defined by the people who are a part of it?

Do you think that during the interview stage, an employer can characterize the work environment as different than it is in reality?

If you say yes to both of these, then I don't understand the disconnect.

Maybe I can summarize another way:

- It's not possible to really know what a work environment is like until you actually start working there. To deny this is to deny that other people at the company play a role in the work environment. Since you don't have control over other people, you don't have control over the work environment.

- Therefore, characterizing a decision to accept employment at a particular employer, as evidence of one's own superior ability to predict what the work environment is like is... misguided?

Job hopping until you find a work environment that fits is a good idea. But this is trial and error. It's not the result of a superior ability to sniff out work cultures before accepting employment.

My last question is: how did this line of reasoning offend you so deeply to suggest that I'm projecting insecurity?

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#136

Post by serf » Wed, Apr 17, 2024, 7:11 PM UTC

szundi wrote: post #115

luisgvv wrote: post #7

I began as a junior dev and climbed up the ranks til the point where I became the SME in some areas of the product. Got laid off because sales goals were not met while they retained people which I think were incompetent in their work. Even some guys which I think were better and more critical to the projects were dumped. I'm not climbing that ladder by being proactive and "pragmatic" again... Call me a paycheck steal…

What about not fucking up your life and find a good comany to work for?

That's a hard pill to swallow after years and years of the same routine 'unsuccesses' , and it relies on the personal belief that A decent life cannot be lead without success in finance and business; I believe that's simply not the case.

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#137

Post by rybosworld » Wed, Apr 17, 2024, 7:21 PM UTC

gopher_space wrote: post #119

rybosworld wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> wisely chooses his employers to not end-up in such environments This is a pretty common attitude. That is, "I'm able to pick better workplaces than you are". It implies you have control over the other people that work at the company. And unless you're the CEO, you don't. You cannot with any certainty tell what a work environment is like in the interview stage. You can job hop a half dozen times until you find a goo…

> This is a pretty common attitude. That is, "I'm able to pick better workplaces than you are". It's more about not applying to certain jobs, or cancelling the process after the first red flag. > You cannot with any certainty tell what a work environment is like in the interview stage. Sure I can. But I might have been at it for a decade or two longer than you have. Folks on HN talk about the warning signs and red fl…

Guessing with a higher accuracy is still guessing.

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#138

Post by deathanatos » Wed, Apr 17, 2024, 7:21 PM UTC

zer00eyz wrote: post #111

diob wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might want to think a bit about survivorship bias and see how it might apply.

Thats the point. Who survives in a down turn? It's not the folks who are "pragmatic" its not the folks who give up... You work with two people, Bob who punches the clock and Bill who puts in the time to get the extra work done. You move on to a new job and your boss says "we need someone new on your team, Bob and Bill are here". You're not picking Bob, Bill gets your vote. Dont be an asshlole be known as at the hard…

> You're not picking Bob, Bill gets your vote.

In the layoffs I've been through, it's just as often that it is Bob who gets the vote.

Not for any reason, it's just random. Bill rolled a 1 somewhere, in that layoff. Better luck next time … if there is a next time.

Nobody is picking. Nobody is choosing, or making rational decisions. Just one day, hey, this entire subtree of the org is just simply laid off — individual performance had nothing to do with it. Or other versions of this that are just equally as obviously random.

Yes, the survivors might have put in the extra work. But what the person above you is saying is that that wasn't why they survived.

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#139

Post by heurist » Wed, Apr 17, 2024, 7:32 PM UTC

dakiol wrote: post #17

luisgvv wrote: post #7

I began as a junior dev and climbed up the ranks til the point where I became the SME in some areas of the product. Got laid off because sales goals were not met while they retained people which I think were incompetent in their work. Even some guys which I think were better and more critical to the projects were dumped. I'm not climbing that ladder by being proactive and "pragmatic" again... Call me a paycheck steal…

> Just give me some JIRA ticket and let me read books while I get my job done in 1-2 hours a day. Aren't we all (normal and decent people) doing this already?

I've never felt secure enough to check out like this, even when my position was effectively locked in. I always want to improve and attain something bigger, so I look for problems beyond my scope when the work isn't coming to me. I feel comfort thinking I know how to take an idea through the full execution cycle due to my practice in seeking and solving problems. But it is hard for me to relax and let go.

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#140

Post by twojobsoneboss » Wed, Apr 17, 2024, 7:38 PM UTC

folsom wrote: post #74

luisgvv wrote: post #7

I began as a junior dev and climbed up the ranks til the point where I became the SME in some areas of the product. Got laid off because sales goals were not met while they retained people which I think were incompetent in their work. Even some guys which I think were better and more critical to the projects were dumped. I'm not climbing that ladder by being proactive and "pragmatic" again... Call me a paycheck steal…

That is why I work like I get paid, a little bit on Fridays.

Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime. That's why I poop, on company time.