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A curious phenomenon called 'Etak'

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Re: A curious phenomenon called 'Etak'

#131

Post by mrandish »

zeteo wrote: post #99
SamBam wrote: post #17

The name is perfect. "Etak" refers to a system of navigation used by Micronesian and Polynesian seafarers to navigate from island to island in the vast Pacific Ocean. Much like this device, it operates by "augmented dead reckoning" (as it says in TFA). The etak system of navigation involves navigating by stars and ocean swells to get the heading, but a key issue when navigating by dead reckoning over long distances i…

That sounds fascinating, but it's not really clear to me how imagining islands beyond the horizon can help with dead reckoning. Maybe there are changes in observable phenomena, such as ocean currents, that are associated with these unseen islands? It does sound like a very complex system based on the beginning of this article; I'm wondering if anyone here has read the books mentioned in it: https://www.jstor.org/stab…

Yeah, this surprised me as well. I get how reading ocean swells, sea life, birds, ocean color (indicating depth and/or plant life below) could give a general sense of position. And I can see how stars, prevailing currents and maybe even estimates based on the relative movement of clouds (adjusted for ambient wind direction and weather conditions) could give a general sense of distance traveled. But on a completely cloudless day (or fully overcast night) gauging distance traveled seems like it could be catastrophically imprecise often enough to make for short navigation careers.

I'm not sure how the concept of tracking virtual islands over the horizon really helps. The only thing I can think of is maybe the idea of it encourages the navigator to stay focused on estimating the passage of proxy points on the far horizon based on whatever composite of wind, current and swell signs they are intuiting from. While still quite variable, I assume gauging distance estimates on the far horizon is better than the alternative of trying to estimate distance traveled from the immediate surroundings of the craft (which are only useful for estimating velocity).

Re: A curious phenomenon called 'Etak'

#133

Post by light_hue_1 »

lsaferite wrote: post #109
light_hue_1 wrote: post #30

> To solve this problem Etak invented ‘augmented dead reckoning’. This used a process to match the position given by the navigation sensors to a topologically correct electronic map. Whenever the vehicle turned you made the assumption that you’re driving on a road. At that point the location could be ‘snapped’ back to the road and the error from the sensors could be reset. This technique was later adopted by all navi…

I mean, if that paper wasn't declassified until 2017, what are they chances they knew about the prior art exactly? I'm not disputing your assertion, but perhaps I'm a little more charitable in thinking they could have independently invented the same thing and believed they were the first since the one you mentioned was apparently classified.

The other paper I showed was always public over a decade before.

Re: A curious phenomenon called 'Etak'

#134

Post by trillic »

mvkel wrote: post #27

Fantastic story. > When I worked on the Apple Maps team, 12 of my colleagues were Etak alumni. What a legacy! It's gratifying to hear of these long-dead companies/products with incredible engineers who are still out there slinging code with the best of them.

Stan Honey, heavily mentioned in the article, most famous for his contributions to sailing, also built the yellow first down line graphic were used to seeing in American football.

Re: A curious phenomenon called 'Etak'

#135

Post by YouWhy »

ShamelessC wrote: post #127
YouWhy wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I concur with you that Etak delivered a functional product, albeit not a commercially successful one, which is farther along than Jodorowsky's Dune project, which stalled mid-way in development. What I wanted to point out is that both projects produced massive amounts of reusable knowledge, and that knowledge set up the stage for a whole field of influential and exciting derivative works.

> I concur with you that Etak delivered a functional product, albeit not a commercially successful one, which is farther along than Jodorowsky's Dune project, which stalled mid-way in development. You seem to be responding to another comment? Or are putting words in the commenters’ mouth?

I was responding to the "Jodorowsky’s attempt was ... never released" critique by trying to expand on both the similarities and dissimilarities between Etak and Jodorowsky's Dune.

Re: A curious phenomenon called 'Etak'

#136

Post by mempko »

Around the same time as Etak was Navteq. Navteq didn't build an in-car navigation system, but did build accurate map and the ability to provide turn by turn directions. Etak could not provide directions and just showed a map. Navteq had kiosks around SF where you could get a printed map with directions. Navteq eventually created the map used by all in-car navigation systems.

It turns out great ideas happen around the same time. Computers became powerful enough that map digitization became possible. The confluence of technologies (all government funded, fyi) like computers, digital maps, and GPS, allows us to have a little square computer in our pockets that can tell us where we are in the world and how to get to where we want to go.

Re: A curious phenomenon called 'Etak'

#137

Post by Akronymus »

bix6 wrote: post #108
btbuildem wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read somewhere that part of the method they intuited their way was to read the waves. As faraway land masses can affect the shape of waves, supposedly these navigators could "see" beyond the horizon due to how the swell was behaving. I can sort of see that in a mind's eye, with rings of waves spreading as they bounce off obstacles in water. But that's bird's view of a miniature -- and seeing that from the surfac…

https://worldhistorycommons.org/marshall-islands-stick-chart It’s amazing they can read such nuance.

Look at something long enough, and you begin to intuit the patterns instinctively.

Re: A curious phenomenon called 'Etak'

#138

Post by mavhc »

amadeoeoeo wrote: post #124
gizmo wrote: post #118

One the one hand this is a cool story about real technology pioneers. On the other hand, this is a story about people building technology that was so ahead of its time that it had no chance of turning into a good product. Too expensive, too unreliable, too complicated. I think there are some obvious parallels here to General Magic and the Apple Newton. Very cool technology. Impressive demos. But ultimately the produc…

Isn't this a necessary part on the innovation path?

Given that the tech and people went on to be involved in future nav systems, yes.

I imagine all that work digitising the maps was used again and again for a few decades, and the people brought their hard won knowledge to newer systems

Re: A curious phenomenon called 'Etak'

#139

Post by lsaferite »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #133
lsaferite wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if that paper wasn't declassified until 2017, what are they chances they knew about the prior art exactly? I'm not disputing your assertion, but perhaps I'm a little more charitable in thinking they could have independently invented the same thing and believed they were the first since the one you mentioned was apparently classified.

The other paper I showed was always public over a decade before.

Unfortunately, I cannot access the paper and as such cannot give any meaningful feedback.

Edit: Funnily enough, searching on google for this paper, your comment is the second result.

Re: A curious phenomenon called 'Etak'

#140

Post by pierrebai »

zeteo wrote: post #99
SamBam wrote: post #17

The name is perfect. "Etak" refers to a system of navigation used by Micronesian and Polynesian seafarers to navigate from island to island in the vast Pacific Ocean. Much like this device, it operates by "augmented dead reckoning" (as it says in TFA). The etak system of navigation involves navigating by stars and ocean swells to get the heading, but a key issue when navigating by dead reckoning over long distances i…

That sounds fascinating, but it's not really clear to me how imagining islands beyond the horizon can help with dead reckoning. Maybe there are changes in observable phenomena, such as ocean currents, that are associated with these unseen islands? It does sound like a very complex system based on the beginning of this article; I'm wondering if anyone here has read the books mentioned in it: https://www.jstor.org/stab…

The explanation could be a combination of experience, details, survivor bias and true scottman.

That is with experience you can select something on the ocean far away that you can track (kelp, etc), with experience and focus to accurately track it and take into account its own movement. Then the method is obviously only promoted by those who successfully survived using it, as the potential nay-sayers who used it and failed are no longer there to give a counter-point. Finally, those who did not use it successfully are probably characterized as "not good navigators", in circular logic.

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