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End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

theguardian.com

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Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#131

Post by lupusreal »

jannw wrote: post #85
gherkinnn wrote: post #19

The whole idea of a linear city is daft. A circle is way more efficient at getting around. The dimensions of the Line are, of course, silly as well.

Not so daft if you consider that it is easier to segment, stratify, and control people in a linear city, as the structure itself acts as a continuous and infinitely adaptable choke point. This seems consistent with Saudi elite's ideas on managing their society.

That explains why it might have been an appealing concept to the inceptor but it's still daft and it was obvious to me from the start that it wouldn't actually be made. I still don't know why anybody humored the premise of this thing getting built.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#132

Post by offices »

keiferski wrote: post #71
dragonwriter wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but it wouldn't have as far to go, since the maximum distance between any two stations is half as far on a ring city of circumference d as on a linear city of length d , and you can get even shorter if you cut across the ring. To get the same area, you'd have to have slightly more center-line circumference on a ring city as linear distance on a line, but even so your transit distances are going to be shorter on…

Right but if the idea is to maximize the open space / city size while maintaining a fast transit system, then the line makes sense to me. I guess I don’t really understand the criticism, most of which seems to be “you should just build something that isn’t the thing you want to build.” There is plenty of aesthetic merit to the linear city idea on its own. To use an example of a place that already exists: the city Łód…

>if the idea is to maximize the open space / city size while maintaining a fast transit system

Then it's Goodhart law in action. A fast transit system is desirable because it's a proxy for low-friction travel. This has the speed and the friction.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#133

Post by yreg »

lvl102 wrote: post #107
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #43

The only thing the Gulf states have going for them is oil money and a good hub location on the Europe–Southeast Asia airline routes. Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Riyadh, Bahrain, Qatar, they all remind me of that quote from King of the Hill—they are monuments to man's arrogance. Desert cities hitting 50+ °C air temperature at midday which means air conditioning everywhere; vapid luxury in the form of expensive garish cars, shop…

For decades, they wanted to diversify away from oil and build tech industries. The problem is they don’t have skilled labor and would have to import “slaves” as they do with everything. They have some of the lowest skilled and laziest labor in the world. If/when dependence on oil ends, these countries will go back to being poor. Edit: contrast ME with Mexico who is running out of oil. Yet, they are able to build beca…

Dubai lives from tourism now. Of course, it was bootstrapped by oil.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#135

Post by tomp »

keiferski wrote: post #120
lvl102 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For decades, they wanted to diversify away from oil and build tech industries. The problem is they don’t have skilled labor and would have to import “slaves” as they do with everything. They have some of the lowest skilled and laziest labor in the world. If/when dependence on oil ends, these countries will go back to being poor. Edit: contrast ME with Mexico who is running out of oil. Yet, they are able to build beca…

UAE is well on its way to being the Switzerland of the Middle East and Indian Ocean. Your rhetoric sounds like it’s from 2003.

Switzerland isn't the most progressive of countries (it only gave women the right to vote in 1971) but AFAIK you don't go to jail if you fuck a man in the ass, in contrast to UAE.

Not something that directly concerns me, but I'm personally more worried about restrictions on freedom of speech, but regardless not somewhere I'd be willing to live (I currently do live in Switzerland).

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#136

Post by delta_p_delta_x »

zaphirplane wrote: post #119
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #43

The only thing the Gulf states have going for them is oil money and a good hub location on the Europe–Southeast Asia airline routes. Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Riyadh, Bahrain, Qatar, they all remind me of that quote from King of the Hill—they are monuments to man's arrogance. Desert cities hitting 50+ °C air temperature at midday which means air conditioning everywhere; vapid luxury in the form of expensive garish cars, shop…

Clearly you dislike gulf countries. The points raised are a mixture of facts, fiction, jealousy and dislike. You want them to boil in desert heat with some environmental appeal, while many countries pump the air full of pollution from factories or massive ICE cars I haven’t heard of back alley executions over there I don’t feel hate towards someone spending their money on 2 cars or a holiday house or whatever luxury…

> Clearly you dislike gulf countries.

I'll be frank: I have a deep mistrust of any culture present in the Arabian peninsula since about 632 CE.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#137

Post by keiferski »

lvl102 wrote: post #130
keiferski wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UAE is well on its way to being the Switzerland of the Middle East and Indian Ocean. Your rhetoric sounds like it’s from 2003.

Think about the fact that education is pretty much free there. They even pay for Western institutions to set up satellite campuses. You’d think they should have the most educated and skilled labor in the world. At some point, you have to realize it’s cultural: they don’t want to work. Funny you mention Switzerland because they have some of the highest skilled labor in the world.

You’re generalizing nearly 20 million people in Saudi Arabia alone. How this is even an acceptable thing to say on HN is beyond me.

The Gulf countries have more than enough expertise to manage and run their wealth for the foreseeable future. To say they’ll be poor again without oil is simply ignorant of the facts and probably related to the point I made above.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#138

Post by tweakimp »

mrtksn wrote: post #121
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #43

The only thing the Gulf states have going for them is oil money and a good hub location on the Europe–Southeast Asia airline routes. Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Riyadh, Bahrain, Qatar, they all remind me of that quote from King of the Hill—they are monuments to man's arrogance. Desert cities hitting 50+ °C air temperature at midday which means air conditioning everywhere; vapid luxury in the form of expensive garish cars, shop…

It's not like they have another option, have they? It's an interesting challenge to transform an uninhabitable piece of earth into something where people might want to live. Also, AFAIK they are very aware that oil money isn't going to keep pouring forever and they indeed are trying to diversify. Their elites all study in UK, France, Switzerland and the USA and the questionable stuff they do is actually about the loc…

Sure, they could put money in education, research climate change and photovoltaic or other technologies and try to improve quality of life with sustainable stuff.

But to the people in power, only symbols and power are important.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#139

Post by StefanBatory »

keiferski wrote: post #71
dragonwriter wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but it wouldn't have as far to go, since the maximum distance between any two stations is half as far on a ring city of circumference d as on a linear city of length d , and you can get even shorter if you cut across the ring. To get the same area, you'd have to have slightly more center-line circumference on a ring city as linear distance on a line, but even so your transit distances are going to be shorter on…

Right but if the idea is to maximize the open space / city size while maintaining a fast transit system, then the line makes sense to me. I guess I don’t really understand the criticism, most of which seems to be “you should just build something that isn’t the thing you want to build.” There is plenty of aesthetic merit to the linear city idea on its own. To use an example of a place that already exists: the city Łód…

the city Łódź in Poland is situated along a single linear 4-5km street

Piotrkowska?

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#140

Post by theGeatZhopa »

reducesuffering wrote: post #38
theGeatZhopa wrote: post #23

That comes unexpected. I really would like to see how this works out. It's a possible way of living in the future. If the earth becomes more fiendly, such cities would offer autonomous compounds for the people. Now i would like to know if somebody is building the ARCs ...

“unexpected” That is not the word I or most of HN would have used… It’s a sad state of the world that this delusional lunatic is dictator of a $1T GDP country instead of everyone else that understands this is a stupid idea.

Yes, you can mix your dislike into your opinions, but they still stay your opinions.

I'm interested in the technology, in the achievements that are possible, the problem solving and solutions found to do something of this scope.

It's not about lunatics or the ** arabs dictators or killers ** say what you want.

For example, the need for the special sand for the concrete. Their sand, which they have plenty of, is completely not suitable for this. It's too fine. So, how this will be solved?

The world could learn a lot of it - just imagine, you can use the Sahara sands instead of the special sands that need to be somehow and somewhere resourced atm. That would reduce the house building costs a lot and enable affordable housing everywhere. I'm talking about the proper way of housing, like in the story of the three pigs and the wolf.

So can you explain why you dislike technology and advancement in city buildings, experiments and new learnings? I don't quite get it.

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