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Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

learncodethehardway.org

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Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#131

Post by rauljara »

zedshaw wrote: post #100
jilebedev wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> comments that don't add to the discussion Atwood: > don't advocate learning to code just for the sake of learning how to code. Shaw: > Never listen to people who try to make beginners feel like losers The OP here is non sequitur at best and strawman at worst. Certainly not a model for constructive contribution to a conversation. The entire affair from here seems to be a nearly-pointless dramatic back-and-forth betw…

Actually, a strawman argument is quoting things out of context to make your point.

No. A strawman is when you give your opponent an argument other than the one s/he is making and refute that instead of the real argument. In other words, you created a strawman and knocked him down, claiming victory while the real man remained standing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#132

Post by mathetic »

bryze wrote: post #118
zedshaw wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did read it, and he's wrong. That's why I wrote mine.

I think we need no more a concise declaration of your bias than this.

When you say it like that it sounds it is bad to be biased in this particular situation.

First of all it sounds much better than "I read it, he is correct. This is why I wrote mine." considering that he is refuting the idea presented.

Being biased is simply being opinionated and luckily Zed Shaw's opinion is that everyone should/can learn code. This is why he has free books, which actually teach some programming to everyone.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#133

Post by dkersten »

zedshaw wrote: post #86
prayag wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm refuting his statement that other people should not become programmers, and that only a few chosen few should. But Atwood didn't say that. All he said was that it's a trade like Plumbing and not a life skill like being able to read. >The resentment comes from me talking to many programmers who say the same thing. But programmers DON'T mostly say that. In fact, I had a very animated discussion with Randy Stross o…

The title says "Please don't learn to code". The rest of the post is just more of that in different words. Wow, alright I'm just going to stop replying to people who can't even read the title, but still claim it's not saying what it says.

I actually agree with your article, but you can't seriously take Jeff Atwoods title seriously unless you also mean us to take your title seriously - so are you now telling us that we shouldn't become anything? Especially not programmers? I mean, it says it right there.

I'll reiterate that I do agree with most of what you wrote and I upvoted this submission because of what you wrote, I just don't think the stance in this (and other) comments is at all valid given the title of your own article.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#134

Post by TommyDANGerous »

Great article. I agree, I really don't like it when others try to pull people down. We should be encouraging because the more we bring each other up, the better life will be. I just started learning how to code as well and it's tough and a lot of work, at times you are super frustrated and a harsh remark at the right time could dampen one's spirit.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#135

Post by saraid216 »

keithpeter wrote: post #91

Disclaimer: I was so impressed with Learn Python the Hard Way that I bought the hardback in the hope that Shaw gets a beer out of it. I've made it to Ch 11 and will finish the course when I get my students through their maths exams. PS: Zed, magstep3 in TeX, please , I need glasses as it is. Is it possible that there are degrees of code writing? I publish my humble Web site using some bash scripts I hacked up to gene…

Quality programming is an extremely broad range, yes. It's not really sufficient to say there are degrees: some forms of excellent quality are completely orthogonal and just can't be properly compared to each other.

And yes, there is definitely a valid space for end user coding. The key is mostly in remembering that an end user cannot and should not be expected to produce something competent, or even palatable.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#136

Post by ashray »

You guys are so naive. The only reason Jeff doesn't want everyone to program is so that we can have the benefits we have right now. There's currently an industry shortage, it's awesome for programmers right, left and center. We get better perks, better benefits, better pay.

There are definitely benefits of having more programmers, or people familiar with programming, however there are two caveats:

1. With more programmers there will be a much larger signal to noise ratio. Good programmers will become much harder to find.

2. It'll drive down the value of each programmer, regardless of industry quality.

The same thing happened to the aviation industry in India. There were pilot shortages, then they found that pilots get paid really well. Everyone and his cousin became a pilot, boom - quality and more importantly perks/pay went down. Now there's a pilot surplus (of mostly inexperienced n00bs) in the country. These guys are all unemployed and the airlines are all talking about "how difficult it is to find good and experienced pilots". But the pay has gone down..

So yeah, nobody learn how to program PLEASE. I want to be the only programmer.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#137

Post by roguecoder »

chris_wot wrote: post #34

I agree with him largely. Then he goes and wrecks his argument by stating that the "Gang of Four" is an "antiquated tome". I can't work out where this resentment business is coming from here.

It's 17 years old, dry and contextless. It can be useful, but it'd be way down on the list of books I'd hand to someone and not only because I'm assuming anyone starting out today is programming in Python, Ruby or JavaScript. It certainly isn't necessary reading to be a good programmer, by any means.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#139

Post by efuquen »

mathetic wrote: post #132
bryze wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need no more a concise declaration of your bias than this.

When you say it like that it sounds it is bad to be biased in this particular situation. First of all it sounds much better than "I read it, he is correct. This is why I wrote mine." considering that he is refuting the idea presented. Being biased is simply being opinionated and luckily Zed Shaw's opinion is that everyone should/can learn code. This is why he has free books, which actually teach some programming to e…

The thing being argued here isn't whether Jeff or Zed is right, the thing being argued is that Zed Shaw grossly misinterpreted what Jeff was saying, which he did.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#140

Post by sac2171 »

Raphael_Amiard wrote: post #104
B-Con wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible post. He wildly exaggerates Jeff's statements and completely misses the point of it, which was not in any way "no one should learn to program", but rather "don't learn specialized skill sets you don't need". Jeff's point focused on whether programming was the best path to solving a problem for most people, and whether they would actually gain anything from it. His main argument was that programming…

> "don't learn specialized skill sets you don't need" Even that would be stupid. You probably don't know if you need it before you know it. Also it could be argued that everybody "needs" to know how to code, in that pretty much everyone spends a good portion of their lives in front of a computer, and knowing how to automate its behavior would make life easier for a lot of people. The funny thing is, pretty much every…

This is the first post that I would down vote if I could. Learning might not be binary, but the industrial revolution was built on the division of labor, and all Jeff was saying is that not everyone needs to learn how to code. If computer scientists/programmers/coders do their job properly, people with absolutely no understanding of the workings of their computers will be able to drive effectively, just as people can drive without understanding how a car works. Some level of encapsulation is a good thing, and while learning how certain things work is generally a good idea, it comes with an opportunity cost, which is especially high when we are talking about the mayor of NYC. Should Obama be learning how to code? Absolutely not. I agree with most of Zed's argument, however he does not respond to Jeff at all.
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