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Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

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Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#131

Post by sublinear »

I grew up a PC gamer in the 2000s, so developed a very strong preference for no acceleration at all and a medium-low pointer speed.

Apple may have great trackpad hardware, but all the software smoothing/acceleration/inertia is infuriating when trying to make precise cursor movements.

I find myself constantly overcorrecting. These fractions of a second wasted add up in a day while trying to work. It's exhausting. Windows is even worse and I don't believe it's possible to completely get rid of the acceleration.

All these skeuomorphic attempts to apply physics to the UI are misguided. Why not bring back those old ugly icons and the wasted screen space too?

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#132

Post by pmontra »

ralphist wrote: post #117
sandreas wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't... You can see this in an open source JavaScript implementation of kinetic scrolling by Apple called PastryKit[3] using a magic number momentum * 0.9. The problem is, that on modern Linux environments, there is no clear responsibility for where scroll handling code belongs. Especially Kinetic / Inertial scrolling is handled way different than in macOS. There is libinput (for handling and redirecting input ev…

> I filed an issue[1] on cosmic in hope they'll get it right, but I don't have too high hopes that this is of much interest. That's insane but you're right. Firefox on Ubuntu had awful trackpad scrolling 10 years ago and it's still bad. How do you make an OS where the main pointing device on half of the market sucks and assign that low priority?

I've been using Firefox on Ubuntu from 2009 to 2022, 08.10 to 22.04, then switched to Debian, but I never noticed any problem. I always used X11, a laptop, touchpad and two finger scrolling. Maybe is it a Wayland thing? Or it is very subjective.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#133

Post by Analemma_ »

ralphist wrote: post #117
sandreas wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't... You can see this in an open source JavaScript implementation of kinetic scrolling by Apple called PastryKit[3] using a magic number momentum * 0.9. The problem is, that on modern Linux environments, there is no clear responsibility for where scroll handling code belongs. Especially Kinetic / Inertial scrolling is handled way different than in macOS. There is libinput (for handling and redirecting input ev…

> I filed an issue[1] on cosmic in hope they'll get it right, but I don't have too high hopes that this is of much interest. That's insane but you're right. Firefox on Ubuntu had awful trackpad scrolling 10 years ago and it's still bad. How do you make an OS where the main pointing device on half of the market sucks and assign that low priority?

> How do you make an OS where the main pointing device on half of the market sucks and assign that low priority?

Because Linux isn't "an OS". It's a kernel made by one set of developers, combined with a bunch of operating systems made by a second set of developers, which pick and choose compositors/window managers/etc. often made by a third set of developers. Each of these sets of developers are pretty good at solving bugs that live entirely in their "domain", but when there's an issue which crosses these interface boundaries, there is nobody to "assign priority", never mind actually work to fix it.

(Not to mention, systemd demonstrates that trying to solve these kinds of pan-system problems earns you little gratitude but tons of vociferous hatred, so people are not inclined to do it.)

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#134

Post by tssva »

samatman wrote: post #57
cycomanic wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also priorise input devices and because of that I would never get a laptop without a track point. Track pads (no matter which ones) are just such a poor choice of pointing device on a laptop, requiring one to essentially move the hand away from the keyboard. Unfortunately I'm pretty much locked into thinkpads now because all other track pointers are pretty crap. The again I can't really complain thinkpads are quite…

There's a categorical difference between preferring one sort of input over another, and there being only one acceptable implementation of that category. As you indicated, if the keyboard cough nub, let's call it a nub, is your mouse pusher of choice, you pretty much own a ThinkPad, because the other ones suck. If you like a trackpad, you have a Mac, for the same reason. I don't know if it's the hardware or the firmwa…

“If you like a trackpad, you have a Mac, for the same reason.”

I have a ThinkPad with a track point and don’t use it opting instead to use the trackpad. Before the ThinkPad I had a MacBook Pro. I find neither trackpad better or worse than the other.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#135

Post by FergusArgyll »

nerdjon wrote: post #109
TonyTrapp wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even more interesting is when I see my partner try to do something on my Mac using a trackpad, he seems... apprehensive? Like he is so afraid of doing the wrong thing and for me this trackpad has never done something I didn't want it to do. Like without even thinking about it while I was re-reading this comment, I had fingers just resting on my trackpad. I think I'll never "get" drag&drop on MacBook touchpads. Ever…

Since you mention the touchpad being too small, are you trying to drag and drop with one finger or multiple? What I always just do is click with my thumb and move around with my other fingers. As long as my thumb stays down it stays selected. Then just a few quick swipes with my finger gets whatever it is I am selecting where I want to go. Same works for windows and anything you click and drag. Admittedly there is a…

Someone I know who's been using apple forever does the same and it always confuses me. Now I know why!

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#137

Post by tcmart14 »

pmontra wrote: post #125
criddell wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why couldn't they? Why is a trackpad different than better speakers or camera or battery runtime or having quiet fans?

They should invent a measurement unit for trackpads/touchpads, whatever we call them. Then a grade 5 touchpad will be immediately perceived as better than a grade 4 one. Or Basic, Business, Elite. Marketing teams are good at that.

I can get on board with that. Just some kind of language to describe a touchpad in marketing material. Without it, it is hard to see, without living with it, how a touch pad differs across two or more devices. I tend to think of touchpads as Mac touch pads and non-touch pads. Even though that is wrong.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#138

Post by dylan-m »

LorenDB wrote: post #90

I'm confused what this is trying to achieve. In my four years of Linux usage, I have had no complaints about the touchpad[0]. [0] Other than the issue where sometimes my touchpad requires an extra finger touch to work after resuming from suspend, but I have a hunch that is a hardware/firmware issue. In fact, I seem to recall that happening on a Windows machine once.

I find this project really confusing, as well. I'm sure sure this project is doing some good work, but I'd love if they take the time to catch us up a little bit, or maybe tweak their name to better reflect what it is they're actually doing. Like, for a modern Linux desktop on well supported modern hardware, what is this affecting?

From my perspective as someone who is rather picky about pixel perfect scrolling and animations, and happily using GNOME 45 with a Magic Touchpad, a Logitech mouse, and a Thinkpad touchpad, and finding nothing particularly amiss with any of those[0] … I'm, um, lost.

Is this all about backporting things to X11? I'm unfamiliar with how touchpads are over there nowadays. (Frankly that sounds like a waste of time to me, but if it still makes people happy, that's cool). Or has this project been actively contributing to exactly those things I'm using, and I just didn't realize?

[0] The Magic Touchpad is definitely a better experience than the Thinkpad one, but they both support multi-finger gestures, and Gtk apps correctly do pixel-perfect scrolling with kinetics and all that jazz. Could maybe do a better job doing the right thing when I lift my finger after scrolling at low speeds. If I used more apps with different toolkits, I know I'd be annoyed by the differences in behaviour between them, so there's definitely something missing there. Happily, since somewhat recently, pretty much every app I use supportsGtk 4 apps all support pixel-perfect scrolling with smooth scroll wheels, too, which is pretty cool.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#139

Post by mewpmewp2 »

nerdjon wrote: post #59
al_borland wrote: post #6

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

It is an interesting thing to think about, I have friends that use Windows that are shocked that I willingly chose to get an external trackpad when I use my Mac as desktop. Even more interesting is when I see my partner try to do something on my Mac using a trackpad, he seems... apprehensive? Like he is so afraid of doing the wrong thing and for me this trackpad has never done something I didn't want it to do. Like w…

My work laptop is a macbook and I have been using it for over 5 years, but I still can't get a handle on it, even for a right click. I am not sure how people find MacOS so good. It just constantly goes against my intution and muscle memory.

I also hate how I have to constantly turn of the mouse acceleration at random times using CLI.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#140

Post by mewpmewp2 »

TN1ck wrote: post #121
TonyTrapp wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even more interesting is when I see my partner try to do something on my Mac using a trackpad, he seems... apprehensive? Like he is so afraid of doing the wrong thing and for me this trackpad has never done something I didn't want it to do. Like without even thinking about it while I was re-reading this comment, I had fingers just resting on my trackpad. I think I'll never "get" drag&drop on MacBook touchpads. Ever…

Try accessibility settings and then 3 finger drag (switching spaces will become 4 fingers). It works really great and makes working in design tools feasible.

Doesn't putting 3 fingers on a track pad already feel so damn awkward? I have to position my wrist so oddly to do something like that.
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