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Could Modified Gravity Kill Planet Nine?

nautil.us

131–140 of 157 posts

Re: Could Modified Gravity Kill Planet Nine?

#131
post #29

I've always thought that a good model or theory predicts observations (like a new particle, or an unseen planet) and is confirmed to be accurate by those observations. A new model that is designed to fit existing observations that don't match our expectations based on the old model, without it correctly predicting new unexpected observations, seems like a rather weak proposition to me.

MOND has successfully predicted:

- "no dark matter" in dense ellipticals and lenticular

- external field effect (including keplerian descent for the milky way)

- early galaxies

Re: Could Modified Gravity Kill Planet Nine?

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "That's a per-galaxy parameter." No, variation in galaxy properties is an output, not an input, of the model. You could decide to quantify and catalog different galaxies with one or more parameters that describe their properties. You could then compare whether that catalog is statistically consistent with the output of the model (and must take into account all uncertainties in the model and the observations). By an…

Let me change your analogy. You take each person, and measure their height. You also "measure" how tall they "should be". You then show that the differences between their actual height and the height they should have had fits a model. That's nice, but for each person, you still assigned a value for the difference between how tall they are and how tall they should have been. That's what I mean by "it's a per-galaxy pa…

There is no DNA for galaxies, so how could you know what the properties of a particular galaxy "should be"?

The focus on "per-galaxy parameters" is like expecting to be able to predict how tall Tom Cruise should be after reading a textbook on the theory of evolution.

Re: Could Modified Gravity Kill Planet Nine?

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it fair to say it is easier to detect planets in other solar systems?

Yes! We often detect planets in other solar systems because they pass in front of their stars, causing the brightness to dip. You can also look for Doppler shifts in the light you see from stars, which is caused by the planet pulling the star slightly. You can also look for the sorts of brightness changes you'd expect as a result of gravity lensing. In almost all cases, you're looking for changes in something you can…

Wouldn’t it still be passing in front of something, or is it likely to be comparatively ‘stationary’ against a similarly stationary backdrop of stars and other objects?

Re: Could Modified Gravity Kill Planet Nine?

#134
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Colloquial language doesn't have to follow scientific language. No facts about the physical universe changed with the name change. We can just keep calling Pluto the ninth planet, which lets the hypothesized distant planet be "Planet X" which is way the hell cooler than "planet 9". There's no need for any permission to do this.

NASA still has a page where that's the primary term: https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/planet-x/

That’s only in the context of ‘x’ being unknown. They’re still referring to it as ‘planet nine’ in the article.

Re: Could Modified Gravity Kill Planet Nine?

#135

Dr Becky explaining the MOND theory and why it's invalid --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlNSvrYygRc

For those of us who don't already know her, can you explain who Dr Becky is and why we should trust her perspective? I can't watch it just yet, but judging from the thumbnail this feels like just another educational YouTube video, and while I watch more than my fair share of that genre I don't tend to implicitly trust it on complicated scientific topics.

She includes references in the description, in case you need to personally double check the content.

Re: Could Modified Gravity Kill Planet Nine?

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! We often detect planets in other solar systems because they pass in front of their stars, causing the brightness to dip. You can also look for Doppler shifts in the light you see from stars, which is caused by the planet pulling the star slightly. You can also look for the sorts of brightness changes you'd expect as a result of gravity lensing. In almost all cases, you're looking for changes in something you can…

Wouldn’t it still be passing in front of something, or is it likely to be comparatively ‘stationary’ against a similarly stationary backdrop of stars and other objects?

When a star is occluded by a planet, it'll dip in brightness at a pretty regular interval (because of the orbit). So you can look look for a series of dips, which gives you a candidate. That's then looked at more closely.

Since a planet 9 wouldn't transit a star at any regular interval, it wouldn't show up as a candidate for that search technique.

Re: Could Modified Gravity Kill Planet Nine?

#137
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DM can't explain renzo's rule, or the tully-fisher relationship, or why the milky way has a keplerian return (efe from the magellanic clouds), or why elliptical and lenticular galaxies don't seem to have dark matter. All these are explainable by MOND. MOND also predicted early galaxies, and a group seeking to disprove MOND by disproving EFE changed their mind because they found evidence of EFE. > it fits the data bes…

I wouldn't have to prove you wrong. If your stance is that Mercury's perihelion shift is explained by DM, then I'll counter that GR explains that, gravitational lensing, gravitational waves, black holes, the CMB, the helium abundance, and then some. By Occam's razor, GR would be the preferable theory. The claim that DM requires conjuring up parameters is completely baseless. There are one or two parameters (besides a…

Process is (laymans understanding):

1. you observe a galaxy doing something strange

2. whatever it does, you add just enough dark matter to account for that behaviour.

Such process seems fishy, because it can explain ANY observation.

If we would go back 130 years ago where GM was not a thing yet, and GM would be competing with DM theory, occams razor would point to DM, because it is simpler one - it fits with newton nicely.

(not an expert though, just repeating stuff I heard on youtube; I’m happy that experts work on all kinds of angles)

Re: Could Modified Gravity Kill Planet Nine?

#138
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NASA still has a page where that's the primary term: https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/planet-x/

That’s only in the context of ‘x’ being unknown. They’re still referring to it as ‘planet nine’ in the article.

> Batygin and Brown nicknamed their predicted object "Planet Nine," but the actual naming rights of an object go to the person who actually discovers it. The name used during previous hunts for the long suspected giant, undiscovered object beyond Neptune is "Planet X."

It's the same thing. These researchers just chose a different name. And the article does use "planet X" more than "planet 9"/"planet nine".

Re: Could Modified Gravity Kill Planet Nine?

#139

Whether or not they're right in their answer, it's interesting to me that this debate is a modern repeat of the discussion about the oddities of Mercury's orbit that some attempted to explain with a hypothetical planet Vulcan [0]. One of the early evidences for Einstein's general relativity was that it accounted for those oddities with only the planetary bodies that had already been observed. [0] https://en.m.wikiped…

And since readers may find this interesting: The various writeups all say that relativity explained the precession of Mercury's orbit, but they never say exactly what factor was accounted for by relativity. The answer: Mercury is heavier when it is at perihelion in its elliptical orbit, because it's moving faster. The increased relativistic mass makes for increased momentum at perihelion, which carries the planet a l…

I don't think there's a way to meaningfully connect your comment to general relativity (GR). "The answer" in GR is that Mercury is in geodesic motion ("free fall"), with its geodesic picked out by the mass of the solar system and principally its central mass (the sun). For all practical purposes, nothing about Mercury itself selects which geodesic its on.

The weak equivalence principle (WEP) says that in curved spacetime a small freely falling object's orbit around a large central pointlike mass is completely determined by the former's initial position in spacetime and its initial velocity.

The strong equivalence principle (SEP) says that this remains true for the smaller body even if that body is bound by its own self-gravitation: the orbit is determined fully by the initial position and velocity and not by the small body's internal composition.

We can of course replace the large-mass pointlike generator of a (exterior) Schwarzschild-like spacetime with an extended body that generates some perturbation of a more general central-mass spacetime (like Kerr or Kerr-Newman).

The WEP has been tested extensively in terrestrial labs (torsion balances) and satellites in Earth orbit (e.g. MICROSCOPE).

The SEP has been tested extensively using satellite and lunar laser ranging, and is supported by astrophysical observations including the triple-relativistic-star system comprising an inner white dwarf and PSR J0337+1715 orbited by an outer white dwarf.

That the SEP holds up so well means that we can replace Mercury with any mass much smaller than the sun (it does not have to be as small or smaller than Mercury) at any density and with any internal configuration as long as it is self-bound gravitationally and/or electromagnetically. So we could replace Mercury with a small black hole or a "hot Jupiter" and the orbit would be identical.

The sun generates a perturbed Kerr metric that must take into account not just its rotation but the sun's non-sphericity (the "solar bulge" makes it slightly oblate). Given the metric (or a good enough approximation) we can solve the geodesic equation, and see that Mercury's orbit follows one of the generated geodesics to high precision.

In http://dx.doi.org/10.1103/PhysRevLett.120.191101> Clifford Will writes: "Finally, at a purely pedagogical level, it is often stated that the relativistic perihelion advance of Mercury is really only a test of the vacuum Schwarzschild solution (or of the slow rotation limit of the vacuum Kerr solution, if one wishes to include the frame-dragging effect), since all the relativistic effects can be derived simply from those metrics." Note that Will's paper uses post-Newtonian corrections to the 2PN level, which is perfectly reasonable given how small Mercury's v/c^2 is, and the ease with which the approach deals with perturbations from the other planets. See also Will's 1986 book, chapter 5 of which is devoted to Mercury's orbit.

> Mercury is heavier when it is at perihelion ... because it's moving faster

"Moving faster" is not a frame-independent statement. We can always use a freely falling coordinate system where Mercury is always at the origin, or a freely-falling coordinate system where in the neighbourhood of a point Mercury experiences no acceleration against those coordinates. There are of course an infinite number of systems of coordinates in which Mercury, the Sun, or both accelerate(s) against that set of coordinates over the course of an Earth year. The point of relativity is that physics do not depend on a choice of coordinates.

"Heavier" is at best ambiguous, requires a lot of care in stating it covariantly (compare the stress-energy tensor), and is in any event irrelevant if the Strong Equivalence Principle holds. More technically, the backreaction of Mercury on the metric generated by the sun (or sun + other planets) is negligible.

If you explain what you mean by Mercury's "relativistic mass" and roughly the magnitude you think its change should be through Mercury's orbit, someone might be help clear up what is probably a misconception. Bear in mind that Mercury moves very slowly compared to c.

Finally, with respect to your last paragraph:

Mercury orbital eccentricity: 0.205630. Pluto orbital eccentricity: 0.2488. If Earth has no perihelion precession because of the low eccentricity (0.01671) of Eearth's orbit, and Mercury's perihelion precession is driven by its higher eccentricity, what do you think Pluto's perihelion precession should be: higher or lower than Mercury's? And why?

Re: Could Modified Gravity Kill Planet Nine?

#140
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a parameter per galaxy, and it can be wildly different. Some galaxies have no dm, some galaxies are "only dm". Hardly "small deviations"

Those are measurements, not parameters. Just like the exact baryonic matter distribution is not a parameter of GR. You have an initial matter distribution, which is a random sample of a probability distribution (that is a part of the model) and then it starts clumping together over time.

They're not measurements. The measurements are rotation rates at various distances from the galactic center, then you plug that into a model and the model tells you where the DM is in that galaxy, then you say "DM explains it all for this galaxy!", but no, the amount and distribution of the DM is an output of the model and that cannot prove anything. There is never an explanation for why DM amounts and distribution vary so much. DM theory needs to make predictions we can then test, not produce model outputs.
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