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PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

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Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#131

Post by palata »

NorwegianDude wrote: post #69

I think developers need to clearly put blame on Apple for PWA not working. In apps you're not allowed to mention apple's shady behaviour when it comes to fees, but on the web you can. Since 2016 I've had the option for users to enable push notifications, with a big red disclaimer if the user is using iOS that it does not work on an iPhone. Still, I got so so many requests from user saying they had tried with Chrome(o…

> I think developers need to clearly put blame on Apple for PWA not working.

I think that developers need to choose technologies that work on the platform they want to support, instead of blaming the platform. It is totally valid for Apple to say "if you want to develop an iOS app, use the iOS native framework".

> If the user bought the phone expecting web push to work then they can probably return it and buy an Android phone instead if the seller can't fix web push.

Who sells an iPhone saying explicitly that web push works? I guess nobody (it would make no sense). If a user bought a phone expecting to be able to use it as a surfboard, they probably can NOT return it for that reason.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#132

Post by paulddraper »

palata wrote: post #125
smoldesu wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of that really disagrees with what I said. Apple failed to lower the on-ramp for native development to the people that wanted it. Now we're seeing desperate porting attempts to the browser, and Apple's desperate attempt at plugging the gap. > The thing is, "more" is not always "better". In the free market, competition is king. "Better" is decided by pitting it against "more".

I wasn't saying I disagree :-). > Apple failed to lower the on-ramp for native development to the people that wanted it. And they don't have to, IMHO. It's not that hard to learn how to do native iOS dev, and Apple is making a ton of money from those who do. Apple not wanting to go out of their way to lower the bar to a point that they don't find profitable is their choice. > In the free market, competition is king.…

> It's not that hard to learn how to do native iOS dev

Brb gotta go get a whole new computer

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#133

Post by smoldesu »

palata wrote: post #126
smoldesu wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can I make an iOS app in pure Python, and should Apple make it possible? Given that neither the browser or iOS runtime can interpret it, no? I think it's reasonable to expect people to write an iOS Python interpreter and expect to get that distributed though. And if the users deliberately install it, what's the problem? > Just like nobody is forcing Tesla Tesla has to certify vehicles as road-safe. Besides FCC comp…

Maybe I did not express myself well. My point was that Apple not embracing PWAs is their choice, I don't see the problem there. I see a problem with the idea that "we did not convince Apple with our PWAs, that's probably because they are evil, so now we'll try to force them with the law".

Why do you see that as a problem? Apple is welcome to leave if they disagree with Europe's market terms. They didn't leave Russia when they made their demands though, and Lord knows they're deep enough in bed with China. Whipping up a fuss over sideloading and PWA guidelines is a red herring; Apple is just butthurt that regulators found their infinite service revenue loophole.

Apple has every right to self-determination, but sometimes that means deciding whether they agree with the law.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#134

Post by hardcopy »

psnehanshu wrote: post #8

And what is the state of PWAs on Android? Is it any better?

It's night and day. For example:

- Installing a PWA from Firefox browser adds to home screen with Firefox engine

- beforeinstallprompt event https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/befo...

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#135

Post by troupo »

andix wrote: post #32

PWAs will only replace native apps when the operating systems support them properly. Let's see how the European Union moves forward with the Digital Markets Act. Let's see if a regulation like that can tame Apple, or if Apple keeps finding loop holes to not fully comply in the intended way (to liberate the European market from oligopolist gate keeping companies). If it works there might be a further revision that for…

> PWAs will only replace native apps when the operating systems support them properly.

There's a whole operating system dominating the mobile market that "supports PWAs properly". We've yet to se any significant number of these great beautiful useful usable PWAs

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#136

Post by CharlesW »

hmottestad wrote: post #38
hmottestad wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like Apple is going to fix dark mode in iOS 18 by dropping support for PWAs altogether in my part of the world. https://www.macrumors.com/2024/02/08/ios-17-4-nerfs-web-apps...

Looks like Apple is just going to blame the EU. They are officially pulling PWA support on iOS in Europe. So fuck me I guess :( https://9to5mac.com/2024/02/15/ios-17-4-web-apps-european-un...

You seem to be conflating "PWA" with the Safari + Home Screen integration that allowed users to add a web[site|app] (PWA or not) to the iOS Home Screen. Apple had to remove this to comply with the DMA.

It's now the responsibility of alternative browser engine vendors to integrate with Shortcuts so that you can add PWAs and other web[sites|apps] to the Home Screen using your browser engine of choice. The additional benefit of this is that different PWAs can use different browser engines.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#137

Post by troupo »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #85
jwells89 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For quick access without cluttering browser tabs and bookmarks.

You value real-estate on your home screen less than in your bookmarks?

I search for installed apps on my phone quite regularly. It's often faster than remembering where the hell it is in my folders on screen.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#138

Post by palata »

bowsamic wrote: post #117
palata wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right but that isn't really a thing anymore. "Wanting to be closer" does not mean "needing to be at the lowest theoretical level". In this case it just means that native mobile frameworks are one layer of abstraction lower than web frameworks, and it is better (not cheaper, not easier, but better).

Native libraries are already an huge abstraction. Anyone can write a GUI framework, even on iPhone. I don’t understand where the line is being drawn here

I am not the OP, but my line here is between the APIs provided by Apple and the third-party abstractions. As an iOS developer, the "lowest" you can get is the Apple framework. PWAs are a third-party abstraction on top of that, which come with all the risks/limitations of both third-party dependencies and abstractions.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#139

Post by paulddraper »

smallerfish wrote: post #95
andix wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I looked into alternatives (it’s been a while) there was no manufacturer that provided updates to latest Android without any delays for longer than 2 years. And manufacturers constantly broke their promise to keep delivering updates as long as possible. I usually buy 2 year old high end iPhones. So this is very relevant for me. Also from an ecological perspective, smartphones should last at least 5 years.

Google Pixels are now shipping 7 years of updates.

Lol. My Pixel is newer than that, and I haven't gotten a single update in 2.5 years.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#140

Post by troupo »

addicted wrote: post #79
matwood wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are constant complaints about electron apps being bad and people wanting native apps, except in the case of PWAs. I can't keep all the complaining straight lol

Electron apps are getting much better. VS Code is considered the best app in its class by a distant margin and it’s an electron app. The first round of Electron apps were created by people who were simply trying to get some cross platform native version of their apps out. It’s only been recently that companies are now creating electron apps as first class products and now those apps are doing very well.

> VS Code is considered the best app in its class by a distant margin and it’s an electron app.

Yes, and by now they have spent spent hundreds of millions of dollars and hundreds of man-years of dev time on it. And it's still the only poster child for "good Electron app"

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