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Tai chi reduces blood pressure better than aerobic exercise

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Re: Tai chi reduces blood pressure better than aerobic exercise

#131

Post by hosh »

laeri wrote: post #123
hosh wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't the sequences or even the outward shape of Tai Chi so much as what is happening within the body that generates the shapes and sequences. There are long-term, transformative effect on the body. For example, my own musculature have developed structures you cannot develop through weight-lifting. I can tell you for example, xingyiquan, baguazhang, bajiquan, wing chun, akijutsu (among many others) all (historical…

What kind of structures did you develop that you can't get by weightlifting? I assume these are some kind of stabilizers that you train by some tai chi movements. If this is the case then it should also be possible to train these using a weightlifting regime with some specific movements targeting those stabilizers.

Not stabilizers. It’s a consequence of developing the capability to inflate and expand the muscles instead of movement through contraction. At some level of development, there are ridges that develop that are not conforming to muscle bundles that form from resistance training. Since weight lifting uses only contraction of muscles, it is impossible to develop these ridges I am talking about.

There are a lot of weird capabilities that can come out of it, but those ridges are probably the most obvious effect, yet it is among least documented yet observable effect when you go searching for things about tai chi or yijinjing.

Re: Tai chi reduces blood pressure better than aerobic exercise

#132

Post by xarope »

beezlebroxxxxxx wrote: post #11

There doesn't really seem to be anything unique to single out tai chi in particular in this study. The benefits pointed out in the article --- that it's meditative, encourages stretching and relaxation, improves balance --- seem to also be associated with things like yoga, or just going through a general stretching and mobility routine. They idea that calming yourself (removing stress or just relaxing) will lower you…

I have done a reasonable amount of Tai Chi (Yang and Chen style), as well as lots of stairs/jogging/walking/cycling (triathlons, mountaineering). The latter sports tend to be quite linear and in a single plane (sagital?), so perhaps moving the body in that extended, circular style of patterning in tai chi helps? However, I find that hiking long distances in varied terrain also gives me that level of meditative feeling, so YMMV.

Someone posted a video below, I noticed it was a Chen practitioner, which makes sense, since I feel the Chen style is more combative and science oriented, e.g. the body is not kept upright like in the other styles, but leans in the direction of force; there's emphasis on circular movement of the body (and not just the obvious hip movement like in karate) to generate force, and distal limbs or tools are then snapped at execution to impart that force.

Re: Tai chi reduces blood pressure better than aerobic exercise

#133

Post by paulrudy »

porphyra wrote: post #94

Taichi is very similar to isometric exercise. Basically in a lot of moves you are pushing against yourself while moving slowly in circles. Isometric exercise, which is when you are exerting force but not moving, has been shown to be great at reducing blood pressure: https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/57/20/1317

Isometric exercise involves co-contraction of muscle groups. Taichi involves the minimal contraction of muscle to produce posture and movement, and encourages maximum availability for responsive, springy movement in every joint. If you're practicing taichi, you're not exerting force against yourself. Isometric contraction is antithetical to taichi practice.

Re: Tai chi reduces blood pressure better than aerobic exercise

#134

Post by porphyra »

paulrudy wrote: post #133
porphyra wrote: post #94

Taichi is very similar to isometric exercise. Basically in a lot of moves you are pushing against yourself while moving slowly in circles. Isometric exercise, which is when you are exerting force but not moving, has been shown to be great at reducing blood pressure: https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/57/20/1317

Isometric exercise involves co-contraction of muscle groups. Taichi involves the minimal contraction of muscle to produce posture and movement, and encourages maximum availability for responsive, springy movement in every joint. If you're practicing taichi, you're not exerting force against yourself. Isometric contraction is antithetical to taichi practice.

I wouldn't go so far as to say antithetical. There are lots of positions in taichi that are basically isometric exercises:

* Horse Stance (Ma Bu): This is a foundational stance in Tai Chi (and many other martial arts) that resembles a half squat. Practitioners lower their center of gravity with feet wide apart, bending the knees and keeping the spine straight. Maintaining this position requires muscle engagement similar to an isometric exercise, strengthening the legs, core, and improving balance.

* Pushing Hands (Tui Shou): This exercise involves two practitioners who work against each other's force in a controlled manner, aiming to improve sensitivity, balance, and strength. While it's more dynamic than traditional isometric exercises, it involves moments where pushing against an opponent (or yourself in solo practice) can mimic the muscle engagement of isometric training.

* Holding the Ball: This position involves standing with knees slightly bent, as if holding a large ball in front of you. This posture engages the arms, shoulders, and core muscles in a static manner, similar to an isometric hold, while also improving balance and concentration.

Re: Tai chi reduces blood pressure better than aerobic exercise

#135

Post by krisoft »

mbivert wrote: post #112
krisoft wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's surprisingly trivial for newborns! how do you know?

I was half-joking (hence the "more seriously"). Nonetheless, the serious half is to be understood with a contextually reasonable definition of "thinking": "the thoughts running through the mind of an adult [when he tries to relax]". It seems fair to argue that such thoughts require a prolonged, sophisticated interaction with human society, which newborns lack.

> "the thoughts running through the mind of an adult [when he tries to relax]".

So by that definition teenagers don't do any thinking because they are not adults?

Also by that definition nobody ever thinks at work because they are working, not trying to relax.

(Not even mentioning that the definition as given only applies to males.)

I'm suspicious of this definition and doesn't match how I use the word "thinking". But I see that if you have this definition then tautologically newborns don't do it.

Re: Tai chi reduces blood pressure better than aerobic exercise

#136

Post by mbivert »

krisoft wrote: post #135
mbivert wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was half-joking (hence the "more seriously"). Nonetheless, the serious half is to be understood with a contextually reasonable definition of "thinking": "the thoughts running through the mind of an adult [when he tries to relax]". It seems fair to argue that such thoughts require a prolonged, sophisticated interaction with human society, which newborns lack.

> "the thoughts running through the mind of an adult [when he tries to relax]". So by that definition teenagers don't do any thinking because they are not adults? Also by that definition nobody ever thinks at work because they are working, not trying to relax. (Not even mentioning that the definition as given only applies to males.) I'm suspicious of this definition and doesn't match how I use the word "thinking". Bu…

> I'm suspicious of this definition and doesn't match how I use the word "thinking". But I see that if you have this definition then tautologically newborns don't do it.

Let me rephrase the argument then: if you've been meditating at least a little, you'll know that the thoughts running through your mind simply cannot occur in the mind of a newborn. When those thoughts go away, your mind go quiet, hence it's reasonable to assume that newborns are naturally, essentially quiet.

Besides, I'm not proposing a mathematical/exact definition here: common sense/good faith is naturally required to make sense of it. I am not redefining what "thinking" means, but locally using the word "thinking" as a loose shortcut for "the mind activities occurring when one tries to relax/meditate".

Re: Tai chi reduces blood pressure better than aerobic exercise

#137

Post by paulrudy »

porphyra wrote: post #134
paulrudy wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isometric exercise involves co-contraction of muscle groups. Taichi involves the minimal contraction of muscle to produce posture and movement, and encourages maximum availability for responsive, springy movement in every joint. If you're practicing taichi, you're not exerting force against yourself. Isometric contraction is antithetical to taichi practice.

I wouldn't go so far as to say antithetical. There are lots of positions in taichi that are basically isometric exercises: * Horse Stance (Ma Bu): This is a foundational stance in Tai Chi (and many other martial arts) that resembles a half squat. Practitioners lower their center of gravity with feet wide apart, bending the knees and keeping the spine straight. Maintaining this position requires muscle engagement simi…

When I think of isometric exercise, I think of co-contracting opposing muscle groups so that the body is exerting more effort than would be minimally necessary to maintain a posture. That kind of exertion would be antithetical to the practice of taichi, but perhaps that wasn't what you meant.

If you meant simply that a posture or position is held against the resistance of gravity or some other resistance (like a partner), then that's isometric contraction by definition, since there is muscle activity but the joints are not moving.

Still, by that definition, describing taichi as a form of isometric exercise doesn't really cut it for me. A fundamental part of practice is to continue discovering how to muscularly engage less, in order to free up the sensitivity, availability, and responsiveness of the body. The phrase "isometric exercise" doesn't conjure up that important aspect in my mind, but that's entirely subjective.

Another aspect is that in practice, there is constant motion in the joints in taichi. Holding static postures is a common and useful aspect of training, but the actual use of taichi (a martial art, after all) is entirely dynamic. To an outside observer, a movement might appear as though a practitioner is holding their arm, spine, and head in fixed positions while turning the waist or stepping, but in actuality, every joint should be adapting and moving in concert with its neighbors. Nothing is held in a fixed position--one reason being that as soon as you're committed to holding something in a fixed position, your partner/opponent will exploit that as a fulcrum to destabilize you.

Re: Tai chi reduces blood pressure better than aerobic exercise

#138

Post by oarfish »

cassianoleal wrote: post #66
thisismyhna wrote: post #56

I do Tai Chi twice a week and it is great for the knees as well. We have a few Yang style groups around us. I would recommend to anyone.

It's the only thing that helps me longer term with shoulder issues as well. I work on the computer, play the guitar and am a rock climber. All those activities have the same tendency of rotating the shoulder forward. As you can imagine, RSI runs big, especially on my right shoulder. I've had many injuries over the years, tried all sorts of treatments - massages, yoga, physiotherapy, accupuncture, you name it. They al…

I'm curious, have you tried strength training the shoulder girdle?

Re: Tai chi reduces blood pressure better than aerobic exercise

#139

Post by krisoft »

mbivert wrote: post #136
krisoft wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "the thoughts running through the mind of an adult [when he tries to relax]". So by that definition teenagers don't do any thinking because they are not adults? Also by that definition nobody ever thinks at work because they are working, not trying to relax. (Not even mentioning that the definition as given only applies to males.) I'm suspicious of this definition and doesn't match how I use the word "thinking". Bu…

> I'm suspicious of this definition and doesn't match how I use the word "thinking". But I see that if you have this definition then tautologically newborns don't do it. Let me rephrase the argument then: if you've been meditating at least a little, you'll know that the thoughts running through your mind simply cannot occur in the mind of a newborn. When those thoughts go away, your mind go quiet, hence it's reasonab…

> if you've been meditating at least a little, you'll know that the thoughts running through your mind simply cannot occur in the mind of a newborn

That is interesting, because i would have used the same example of meditation but to argue in the opposite direction. People intentionally need to learn how to meditate. Calming your mind takes practice and effort. The default state of being seems to be not the meditating state.

Newborns seems to have all the bits adults have, except they don’t really have a good control over them yet. I assume this is the same for their mind. Therefore i would assume they have all kind of racing thoughts. Clearly of course non-verbal ones, more like bundles of emotions and feelings. But i would assume their head is full of “proto-thoughts”. They of course are not worried if their tax returns were filled out correctly, for the simple reason that they don’t know what a tax return is. But i wouldn’t assume that their head is a calm place.

I’m not saying that I am right, and newborns have thoughts. What I am saying is that it is not obvious to me why they wouldn’t. Why would their mind be the only thing they have better control over than at adulthood?

Now maybe i just haven’t meditated enough. ;) Maybe if i just reach a higher level of consciousness it will be all clear to me. But so far you haven’t convinced me.

Re: Tai chi reduces blood pressure better than aerobic exercise

#140

Post by omega3 »

leashless wrote: post #128
nandkeypull wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can find a competent instructor from a lineage that preserved the fighting applications of tai chi, you can see some pretty interesting grappling and joint-locking techniques. It's not all snake oil. One example (Yang-style tai chi): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp2jWeaKrqI

Here is a pretty good example of a very large trained fighter and a very excellent and much smaller tai chi guy going at it reasonably hard (like maybe one of them walks away with a concussion type hard). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D5DGpORANE I think that's a pretty good example of what "people who can actually fight well use tai chi techniques" looks like. A lot of force is going into those throws, bodies are…

It's better than most of bullshido videos but it's obvious that the greco wrestler is acting and not really trying: no head control, no wrist control, high center of gravity, dramatic throws.
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