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Tenets

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Re: Tenets

#131

Post by immibis »

ramesh31 wrote: post #16
nightski wrote: post #7

Now I know why I dislike Svelte so much, I don't believe in its principles. Which is perfectly fine, a framework can't please everyone. HTML is not the mother language - It's actually pretty terrible for describing dynamic user interfaces. This is why JS solutions are so appealing. If HTML is so magical why do they need a fancy template language? Magical, not magic - I really don't want it to feel magical either. I l…

>HTML is not the mother language - It's actually pretty terrible for describing dynamic user interfaces. Compared to... what? XML? QML? XIB? There's literally nothing better than HTML for UI. Anything else is either buried in a mountain of proprietary nonsense, is platform specific, or is far inferior technically.

Even some of the "proprietary nonsense" is better than HTML. Visual Basic let you just drag-and-drop controls onto a page, arranged in any way you liked! Now, it wasn't responsive, but we didn't have smartphones back then so nobody cared.

Re: Tenets

#132

Post by [deleted] »

patrickmay wrote: post #115
baxtr wrote: post #97

Anyone know why these principales are called tenets? I believe it’s a concept that originates from amazon.

Not sure why you're getting downvoted. I worked at Amazon for a few years and a Tenets section was common in our documentation. I still use them. Defining the DNA of your project in this way aids in decision making.

[deleted]

Re: Tenets

#133

Post by immibis »

foota wrote: post #38
jmull wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a big fan of HTML itself, but I do think svelte is right to focus on it for specifying UI. That's because HTML is the native language for describing UI in the browser. No matter what you use to specify UI, you have to understand how it translates to HTML to use it in the browser (and how HTML translates back, for debugging). The further your UI specification language deviates from HTML the harder that it. Of…

Sure, you should understand how your html will render, but expressing logic and handlers etc., in the html is just painful to me.

Check out the examples. Logic is expressed in Javascript inside tags, just like vanilla web dev.

Re: Tenets

#134

Post by immibis »

hpeter wrote: post #54
troupo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's literally nothing better than HTML for UI. Except... Literally everything else. Imperative Delphi code from early 2000s or indeed Turbo Pascal code from 1995 will run circles around HTML any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

My browser can't run Delphi or Turbo Pascal.

"There's literally nothing better than HTML for UI" and "There's literally nothing better than HTML for UI in my browser" are two different statements; anyway, until relatively recently there was XUL.

Re: Tenets

#135

Post by blackoil »

nightski wrote: post #7

Now I know why I dislike Svelte so much, I don't believe in its principles. Which is perfectly fine, a framework can't please everyone. HTML is not the mother language - It's actually pretty terrible for describing dynamic user interfaces. This is why JS solutions are so appealing. If HTML is so magical why do they need a fancy template language? Magical, not magic - I really don't want it to feel magical either. I l…

Yes, I also don't see the charm. JS/TS are more expressive, you can have composition and modular code natively. Also JSX is 99% HTML.

With HTML first solutions, we sprinkle it with some # language which is neither simpler nor as expressive. It looks simple in toy examples, but for large projects you end up with worse structure.

Re: Tenets

#136

Post by blackoil »

ForHackernews wrote: post #20
nightski wrote: post #7

Now I know why I dislike Svelte so much, I don't believe in its principles. Which is perfectly fine, a framework can't please everyone. HTML is not the mother language - It's actually pretty terrible for describing dynamic user interfaces. This is why JS solutions are so appealing. If HTML is so magical why do they need a fancy template language? Magical, not magic - I really don't want it to feel magical either. I l…

No accounting for taste, I suppose. Writing JSX is a nightmare to me. It's like we've forgotten 20 years worth of hard-earned knowledge about the value of separation of concerns.

Do a 5 why for separation of concern and you'll find JSX is more logical.

You want things edited together to be closer in code also. A single file or couple of files next to each other that decide structure, behaviour and view of a component is better than few CSS/JS for whole site.

Re: Tenets

#137

Post by efilife »

pier25 wrote: post #81
Hugsun wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using it professionally for some time and find it pretty nice. What are your frustrations with it?

It's severely lacking in the backend but I guess this is more of a general issue with all so called full stack JS frameworks. Specifically with SvelteKit the big deal breaker is routing. I also find the whole +page.svelte stuff to be a usability nightmare since I barely use the file explorer to move around a project and instead use fuzzy search. Unfortunately SvelteKit is pretty unflexible so you either love it or ha…

Previous versions of SvelteKit didn't have this +page handicap. Try older versions if it's still possible and you will love it

Re: Tenets

#138

Post by lenkite »

spankalee wrote: post #45
nightski wrote: post #7

Now I know why I dislike Svelte so much, I don't believe in its principles. Which is perfectly fine, a framework can't please everyone. HTML is not the mother language - It's actually pretty terrible for describing dynamic user interfaces. This is why JS solutions are so appealing. If HTML is so magical why do they need a fancy template language? Magical, not magic - I really don't want it to feel magical either. I l…

> HTML is not the mother language - It's actually pretty terrible for describing dynamic user interfaces. I disagree a lot on HTML here - it's a pretty fantastic way of describing a render and layout tree, so much so that people are embedding HTML-like syntax in programming languages because the syntax is better than what the language already has to offer. To paraphrase something I've heard: JSX proves that HTML actu…

I personally agree - mileage definitely varies with people. Prefer markup languages over code for describing user-interfaces any day. Find myself quite comfortable with XAML and struggle with SwiftUI.

Re: Tenets

#139

Post by pier25 »

efilife wrote: post #137
pier25 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's severely lacking in the backend but I guess this is more of a general issue with all so called full stack JS frameworks. Specifically with SvelteKit the big deal breaker is routing. I also find the whole +page.svelte stuff to be a usability nightmare since I barely use the file explorer to move around a project and instead use fuzzy search. Unfortunately SvelteKit is pretty unflexible so you either love it or ha…

Previous versions of SvelteKit didn't have this +page handicap. Try older versions if it's still possible and you will love it

Wouldn't make much sense to invest time into an abandoned and unfinished version of SvelteKit.

Re: Tenets

#140

Post by troupo »

immibis wrote: post #134
hpeter wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My browser can't run Delphi or Turbo Pascal.

"There's literally nothing better than HTML for UI" and "There's literally nothing better than HTML for UI in my browser" are two different statements; anyway, until relatively recently there was XUL.

Yes, they are two different statements. However, the comment I was responding to was making general claims and even used QML and XIB as examples.
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