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Privacy focused platform Skiff is joining Notion, Skiff to be sunset

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Re: Privacy focused platform Skiff is joining Notion, Skiff to be sunset

#131

Post by sumeno »

pembrook wrote: post #122
cqqxo4zV46cp wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really appears to be lost on HN and I have no idea why. It’s such a weird blindspot. I only see it said it displayed as extreme cynicism toward Google and Microsoft by people trying to run their own personal mail server, who after some polite prodding almost never seem to be doing bare minimum ‘best practices’ for getting their mail delivered.

Very few people understand the extent of how many bad actors there are until they experience it firsthand. That said, Google and Microsoft essentially have monopolies in their respective areas of the market (Gmail in consumer, Outlook in B2B), and if you think they aren't slowly letting these products decline while cranking up the revenue extraction...you're dead wrong. With LLMs they could eliminate spam in a much m…

> With LLMs they could eliminate spam in a much more reliable way without killing off small senders, tomorrow.

Tell me you don't understand inference costs without telling me.

Re: Privacy focused platform Skiff is joining Notion, Skiff to be sunset

#132

Post by malfist »

pembrook wrote: post #122
cqqxo4zV46cp wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really appears to be lost on HN and I have no idea why. It’s such a weird blindspot. I only see it said it displayed as extreme cynicism toward Google and Microsoft by people trying to run their own personal mail server, who after some polite prodding almost never seem to be doing bare minimum ‘best practices’ for getting their mail delivered.

Very few people understand the extent of how many bad actors there are until they experience it firsthand. That said, Google and Microsoft essentially have monopolies in their respective areas of the market (Gmail in consumer, Outlook in B2B), and if you think they aren't slowly letting these products decline while cranking up the revenue extraction...you're dead wrong. With LLMs they could eliminate spam in a much m…

Gmail is primarily a free product. Do you know how expensive it would be to run an LLM over every email delivered to gmail? I'd be surprised if there's enough hardware in the world for that.

Re: Privacy focused platform Skiff is joining Notion, Skiff to be sunset

#133

Post by marcinzm »

infinitezest wrote: post #130
marcinzm wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments "optimizing" resource allocation to avoid "waste" tends to not actually make people's lives better. Or reduce actual waste.

Is there a better alternative? The current situation doesnt seem sustainable...

What specifically is not sustainable?

As I see it you're basically arguing for less focus on innovation. Skiff failed as a business. To not waste resources would mean it had to never have existed in the first place. That means you need to limit the desire of investment in risky or innovative ventures as most of those will fail. When they fail the resources used for them are wasted. This is because if you limit the ability of companies to exit to recoup some loses then you increase risk for starting a company. It also doesn't prevent waste in any way since the existing large companies (now even larger due to less competition) can still internally make and kill products at will. Or just do things very inefficiently.

Re: Privacy focused platform Skiff is joining Notion, Skiff to be sunset

#134

Post by binary132 »

ssss11 wrote: post #52

People don’t entrust these kinds of services lightly. A 6 month notice to get off sucks.

People need to start thinking about how every webservice exists for only as long as its operator continues to pay for its hosting and operation.

Re: Privacy focused platform Skiff is joining Notion, Skiff to be sunset

#135

Post by dcow »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #110
dcow wrote: post #56

Why would Notion shut down the email provider product? I understand sunsetting drive and rolling pages and calendar into Notion and Cron, respectively. But it would be pretty awesome if Notion had an email service. There’s nothing out there that’s as easy as Google Workspace (not even Proton’s suite—I use it personally) and I’d use Notion-plus-Skiff-and-Cron over Google Workspace any day. Huge miss…

For the same reason that Skiff is being acquihired: it has simply proven to not be a viable business. The reason Notion acquires and kills this product is not because it is in any way an interesting product or company to them but because it has investors that need bailing out that are also Notion investors. Notion gets some nice people in their team and some of them might even stay. This is a very common practice in…

I know how shitty exits work, trust me. I don’t know why Notion wouldn’t want to tack on email to their product suite. email may not work in isolation in exactly the way Skiff was doing it, but it’s not expensive to operate and it does work as a part of suite of business productivity tooling.

The only thing I can come up with is that the tech doesn't drop in as is because of the encryption so if they have to rebuild it under Notion’s brand do a clean cut and reboot targeting Notion’s market.

Re: Privacy focused platform Skiff is joining Notion, Skiff to be sunset

#136

Post by dcow »

TotempaaltJ wrote: post #112
dcow wrote: post #56

Why would Notion shut down the email provider product? I understand sunsetting drive and rolling pages and calendar into Notion and Cron, respectively. But it would be pretty awesome if Notion had an email service. There’s nothing out there that’s as easy as Google Workspace (not even Proton’s suite—I use it personally) and I’d use Notion-plus-Skiff-and-Cron over Google Workspace any day. Huge miss…

My guess is that this is still acquiring the email tech, but Notion has no interest in end-to-end encryption. They don't care for the customer base, since those are all with Skiff (partially) for the E2EE stuff. I'd bet they'll either unravel the E2EE from Skiff's software to relaunch it under their brad, or use their newly acquired expertise to build a Notion Email service from the ground up.

This is what I’m thinking too. They took Cron and rebranded. If they can re-build Skiff without all the encryption baggage then it can slot in.

Re: Privacy focused platform Skiff is joining Notion, Skiff to be sunset

#137

Post by api »

pembrook wrote: post #122
cqqxo4zV46cp wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really appears to be lost on HN and I have no idea why. It’s such a weird blindspot. I only see it said it displayed as extreme cynicism toward Google and Microsoft by people trying to run their own personal mail server, who after some polite prodding almost never seem to be doing bare minimum ‘best practices’ for getting their mail delivered.

Very few people understand the extent of how many bad actors there are until they experience it firsthand. That said, Google and Microsoft essentially have monopolies in their respective areas of the market (Gmail in consumer, Outlook in B2B), and if you think they aren't slowly letting these products decline while cranking up the revenue extraction...you're dead wrong. With LLMs they could eliminate spam in a much m…

Basically all open systems are destroyed by spam. Email isn’t really open anymore. It’s got a whole ad hoc high maintenance heavily manual regulatory system around it to make it still somewhat useful.

Even with all that I still get dozens of scams and spam emails a day.

Re: Privacy focused platform Skiff is joining Notion, Skiff to be sunset

#138

Post by notpushkin »

Jaja_what_else wrote: post #124

Mailbox.org as a mail provider has not been metioned here, so i will do it now. That's it - i will not point out the features here as you can look it up yourself. Just the relevancy for this topic: berlin based company with a CEO that is highly skilled, involved in protocol standartization and very much into privacy topics and free software. i am also pretty much sure they will stay arou d for years to come, as they…

I'm really pleased with Purelymail so far. It's very minimalistic, reliable (I can't remember if I've ever had any sort of downtime at all!), and dirt cheap: $10/yr if you're on simple pricing, and usually even less if you pay for usage (my usual monthly bill is around 50¢, give or take, so something like $6/yr).

https://purelymail.com/

Re: Privacy focused platform Skiff is joining Notion, Skiff to be sunset

#139

Post by Semaphor »

ianopolous wrote: post #121
joshuaissac wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Peergos seems to be a lot like a self-hosted Dropbox. How does it compare to ownCloud and Nextcloud?

We treat the server as an adversary. So everything is chunked an encrypted so the server can't see file data, filenames, file sizes, whether something is a file or dir, who has access to a file, who your friend are etc. Everything is signed so servers can't tamper with your data either. We also use a p2p and self-authenticated protocol so it is easy to migrate servers whilst keeping your identity, friends and data.

Interesting, in selfhosted discussions, I usually hear about that as a negative (it comes up frequently in the seafile - nextcloud comparison). It makes sense, but I hadn’t heard the pro-part of the argument before.

Re: Privacy focused platform Skiff is joining Notion, Skiff to be sunset

#140

Post by ementally »

ianopolous wrote: post #114

If you're interested in an open source, (including the server) self hostable, E2EE and federated/p2p storage, sharing and app protocol (including calendar, docs etc) who doesn't have VC investors, check out Peergos: https://peergos.org Tech book - https://book.peergos.org Source - https://github.com/peergos/peergos Sign up to our server - https://peergos.net/?signup=true

Interesting, I really like your technical blogs https://peergos.org/blog.
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