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EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

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Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#131

Post by davedx »

throwaway4good wrote: post #61
jacquesm wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed they don't have a choice, I'm just not so sure about the positive outcome. Xi has built a house of cards and has too much of a cult of personality to create a stable environment.

Wrt. this I don't Xi matters a lot. There is consensus in the broader Chinese leadership that China needs to move up the value chain to the point where it has leadership, and potential self-sufficiency, in all key industries and at the same time stimulate internal demand.

He's cemented his position as dictator-for-life, and also shown that he will actively interfere in publicly traded companies. That matters a hell of a lot.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#132

Post by pitkali »

chucke1992 wrote: post #93
yurishimo wrote: post #13

As a knowledge worker who immigrated to the Netherlands in 2022 and also lives in Eindhoven, these insights and discussions are super interesting to me. Unlike most of my nearby expat peers, I didn't move here to work at ASML or Philips, but now that I'm here, it's undeniable; the appeal of working for such companies is huge. Obviously, companies want to make money, but the goals of the government have somewhat been…

Nah, I don't see Europe producing their own silicon valley - EU has over-regulated and a fragmented market. Too many regulations lead to less enterprises, while fragmentation (Germany, France, etc. with their own regulations + language barriers) prevents companies from growing big in their home soil. Anecdotally, I feel like Sweden produces more startups that grow large worldwide. I presume, they have less regulation…

> Anecdotally, I feel like Sweden produces more startups that grow large worldwide.

Yet, they are also part of the EU.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#133

Post by p_l »

IshKebab wrote: post #42
max_ wrote: post #33

This is most likely going to fail. Just like how the EU finance a hundreds of millions of dollars for a Google competitor that we haven't heard of today. [1] [1]: https://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2007/07/eu-approves-16...

Yeah I've worked in a couple of startups in the UK now that I was surprised to discover got most of their funding from the EU. E.g. Ultrahaptics (which was an obviously flawed idea) got most money from Horizon 2020, not customers. Kind of weird that these wastes of money are never in the news, not even during Brexit.

You'd be surprised how many "commercial successes" in USA (essentially entire Silicon Valley and before that, Route 128) were driven by big bags of government money at a time when considerable portion of rest of the world would continue to repair and rebuild things wrecked by war.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#134

Post by roenxi »

apexalpha wrote: post #90

The EU is simply too scared to actually put it's foot down. If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have at least one of their fabs here in the EU. But they won't. In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries. Edit: For clarity, I'm not suggesting bannin…

ASML isn't guarding profound insights revealed by the gods requiring some sort of eternal liver pecking sacrifice to obtain. If the EU plays hardball to too great an extent, other countries will replicate the research.

China will already have started their attempts. It isn't crazy to expect them to achieve success single handedly. If all of Asia starts mucking in the EU will get crushed. The EU does not have a track record of staying ahead when they tangle with Asians for tech manufacturing supremacy.

The EU can't parlay a temporary monopoly held by one manufacturing company into a useful strategic edge.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#135

Post by amelius »

ThalesX wrote: post #46
jacquesm wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if I understand your question correctly, but if you mean the pay compared to US tech companies active in NL then I would say it depends very much on your specialization. Engineer: 40k and up, team lead: 70k and up, project manager: 90k and up. I don't have much data on other roles but the 'and up' is the big factor, depends on seniority and specific skills. What really strikes me is that an extremely hig…

> Engineer: 40k and up [...] I'm sure Google or FB would pay more There's body shops in Eastern Europe that pay more for junior frontend developers...

Primary school teachers make 40k to 72k in the Netherlands.

It doesn't make sense to be a software engineer in that country, unless you prefer looking at a screen all day over working with people.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#136

Post by pitkali »

seper8 wrote: post #113
georgeecollins wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> locally quite high $80k annual income (STEM PhD, 40yo) I love Europe, both for the lifestyle and the safety net. But the salaries are kind of shocking for an American.

I work at said company with just a bachelors degree and make (way) more than that. I think its mostly PHD's that are paid shit comparatively to the US, lol. I've heard it's because there's little to no competition. If you have PHD's in certain fields, you can either work at ASML here or do something else unrelated to your PHD.

> I think its mostly PHD's that are paid shit comparatively to the US, lol.

No. The salaries at all levels in Europe are lower than in the US, regardless of a few outliers. That part is indisputable.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#138

Post by surgical_fire »

dijit wrote: post #109
ben_w wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries. Those GDPs varies from about €18 billion (Malta) to about €4 trillion (Germany).

Yes, but we typically think of the EU as advanced economies, and the notion of a company having a market cap larger than some advanced economies definitely hurts when subsidies from that bloc are increasing profits. Which is what the parent is directly addressing. anyway: GDP is more closely related to revenue than it is market cap.

> Yes, but we typically think of the EU as advanced economies

The size of an economy is in no small factor of population size. All things considered, Luxembourg is an advanced economy, but it is also a tiny nation.

The economic bloc as a whole subsidizing any initiative should not be impacted by the relative small size of some of its members, as the bloc has a budget of its own, relative to the size of all those economies together.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#139

Post by Culonavirus »

seper8 wrote: post #111
apexalpha wrote: post #90

The EU is simply too scared to actually put it's foot down. If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have at least one of their fabs here in the EU. But they won't. In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries. Edit: For clarity, I'm not suggesting bannin…

>If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have a fab here in the EU. LOL This would devastate the world economy. Gl getting chips for phones, computers, satellites...

[flagged]

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#140

Post by robertlagrant »

apexalpha wrote: post #117
seper8 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have a fab here in the EU. LOL This would devastate the world economy. Gl getting chips for phones, computers, satellites...

They wouldn't have to put all their fabs here. But if they want the latest ASML machines they need to have at least one big fab inside the EU, or else they only get one generation back. There's only a handful of companies in the world producing chips at scale, so it wouldn't be too out of the question. You could even invite the Chinese to put their fabs in the EU so that they get a chip sector they control but also m…

Isn't it better (though harder) to have a good environment for building things than to just write protectionist rules?
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