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Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

greenpeace.org

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Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#131

Post by brutusborn »

InSteady wrote: post #124
brutusborn wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same logic applies to shutting down oil and gas production: if we are not certain, then why risk the downsides? I’m not saying this is a good way to think, just that it shows the fault in your logic.

>The same logic applies to shutting down oil and gas production: if we are not certain, then why risk the downsides? You are conflating the cost of not extracting a fraction of a fraction of current production capacity with the risk ending human existence through changing systems we do not have anything close to a full understanding of nor precise control over. Degrees of risk matter, in fact they are the whole point…

I’m not conflating them, I’m trying to elicit someone to _compare_ them so we can discuss reflexively rejecting certain solutions.

If you don’t have some measure of cost / benefits / risks, how can you reject a potential solution outright?

The answer is you can’t, so if you are doing so your reflex is based on emotion rather than reason.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#132

Post by brutusborn »

bertil wrote: post #106
brutusborn wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbon capture is being successfully used all around the world. It’s in its infancy, but so were solar panels decades ago, and we didn’t give up on them. We don’t have enough data on geoengineering to judge yet, there is no real science to follow. Also I don’t understand this attitude of rejecting potential solutions outright. Science doesn’t “prove” things, we can’t ‘follow’ it due to the problem of induction. So we…

> Carbon capture is being successfully used all around the world. [Citation needed]

If I must spoon feed you… https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_carbon_capture_and_s...

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#133

Post by tordrt »

seb1204 wrote: post #125
Invictus0 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway is a beautiful modern liberal democracy, Saudi Arabia is a theocratic desert dictatorship hellhole.

Having been to both countries I fully agree. However the GP had a point in that the public image of Norway is hydro power and 90% EVs nowadays. The fact that they are a major oil and gas exporter is not as widespread.

Is it more immoral to export oil and gas than to actually burn it? Norway is hydro power and a lot of EVs.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#134

Post by stubish »

belval wrote: post #108
bertil wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> new oil field I was surprised because I assumed Norway wouldn’t open new oil fields. I’d say it’s “interesting,” but what I actually mean isn’t publishable.

Hot take, but I feel like Norway gets greenwashed a lot as better than everywhere else, when they are basically a northern Saudi Arabia in terms of exports with over 70% of their exports being oil and gas.

Greenwashed a lot better? A lot better than whom? Which countries are more deserving of Norway's perceived status as one of the greenest nations?

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#135

Post by graemep »

stubish wrote: post #134
belval wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot take, but I feel like Norway gets greenwashed a lot as better than everywhere else, when they are basically a northern Saudi Arabia in terms of exports with over 70% of their exports being oil and gas.

Greenwashed a lot better? A lot better than whom? Which countries are more deserving of Norway's perceived status as one of the greenest nations?

Anywhere that does not export huge amounts of oil and gas.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#136

Post by graemep »

brutusborn wrote: post #51
was_a_dev wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't if you aren't a scientist in that field. As you're not qualified to do otherwise. As a physicist in quantum sensing. I follow the science (opinion) of climate scientists as they're the experts of that field. And that opinion is constantly evolving, but I follow that. Anything else is just being an armchair scientist.

Surely a physicist is best placed to ‘Nullius in Verba’ and to do his own research. Climate models are fundamentally physical simulations after all…

Biological systems play a huge role in the climate too so its not purely physical simulation.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#137

Post by defrost »

tordrt wrote: post #133
seb1204 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been to both countries I fully agree. However the GP had a point in that the public image of Norway is hydro power and 90% EVs nowadays. The fact that they are a major oil and gas exporter is not as widespread.

Is it more immoral to export oil and gas than to actually burn it? Norway is hydro power and a lot of EVs.

The age old question of the ethical heroin dealer.

Does not selling to the local school while riding an electric scooter make it alright?

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#138

Post by stubish »

brutusborn wrote: post #46
pretendgeneer wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being against Carbon Capture and geo-engineering is just following the science. Carbon capture has constantly been shown to just not work at any scale. and geo-engineering causes so many extra problems and will absolutely lead to termination shock at some point.

Carbon capture is being successfully used all around the world. It’s in its infancy, but so were solar panels decades ago, and we didn’t give up on them. We don’t have enough data on geoengineering to judge yet, there is no real science to follow. Also I don’t understand this attitude of rejecting potential solutions outright. Science doesn’t “prove” things, we can’t ‘follow’ it due to the problem of induction. So we…

The closest we have are emissions reductions on power generation and other highly polluting facilities. Carbon capture of CO2 from the atmosphere is not being used successfully, anywhere. There are plenty of feel good articles about trials and test sites and experimental facilities, none of which are within multiple orders of magnitude of being capable of scaled out to the amounts needed. They all require such vast amounts of electricity that it would be better using that electricity to not emit the carbon in the first place. There are no technologies on the horizon that could even put a dent in our current yearly emissions, let alone clean up past excess. Yet it is used time and time again to sell carbon neutral plans and policies to the public, which will never reach their targets.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#139

Post by stubish »

madsbuch wrote: post #34
pretendgeneer wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being against Carbon Capture and geo-engineering is just following the science. Carbon capture has constantly been shown to just not work at any scale. and geo-engineering causes so many extra problems and will absolutely lead to termination shock at some point.

can you make a scientific argument that carbon capture and geo engineering will not work at scale. if not, then you are just littering with words.

It takes orders of magnitude more power to capture the carbon from the atmosphere than was gained putting it there in the first place.

It requires sucking in and processing inconceivable quantities of air requiring inconceivable amounts of land for the facilities, because the carbon we need to capture has been released and distributed into the earths atmosphere.

The engineering required to scale out any existing or envisioned technology to put a meaningful dent just on our yearly emissions is more than simply replacing the worlds energy production with zero emissions generation and storage.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#140

Post by burkaman »

stubish wrote: post #134
belval wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot take, but I feel like Norway gets greenwashed a lot as better than everywhere else, when they are basically a northern Saudi Arabia in terms of exports with over 70% of their exports being oil and gas.

Greenwashed a lot better? A lot better than whom? Which countries are more deserving of Norway's perceived status as one of the greenest nations?

Really depends on what you mean by green, but here's one methodology: https://epi.yale.edu/epi-results/2022/component/epi
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