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We need technology that is less immersive, not more

filiph.net

131–140 of 202 posts

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Profit" is just the difference between what people are willing to pay for a service and the full cost of what it takes to provide that service (which itself is defined as how much the different suppliers could be making doing other stuff). Business owners are rewarded for shifting resources away from activities that consumers don't value highly (as evidenced by their willingness to pay for them) to ones that they do…

Blaming consumers for the modern advertising industry is like blaming Soviet factory workers for bread lines.

Blame is counterproductive. The world simply is the way it is, but it is helpful to have a realistic picture of why, and then you can make local modifications that might at least make your own life a bit nicer.

In advertising's case, it's such a huge industry because it works. It moves the needle on purchasers' decisions. You can make it work a little less well on yourself with a few mental habits: never buy on impulse, don't save your credit cards, put time and distance between yourself and the purchase decision, have a rigorous self-directed research process before you open your wallet, learn to skip or tune out ads, go for paid media instead of ad-supported media, etc. And you can make it work for you by taking the other side of trade and getting paid when other people click on ads. But there are 8B+ humans who you don't control, and they will do what they want to do.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blaming consumers for the modern advertising industry is like blaming Soviet factory workers for bread lines.

Blame is counterproductive. The world simply is the way it is, but it is helpful to have a realistic picture of why, and then you can make local modifications that might at least make your own life a bit nicer. In advertising's case, it's such a huge industry because it works. It moves the needle on purchasers' decisions. You can make it work a little less well on yourself with a few mental habits: never buy on impul…

i can with good conscience say that i am doing all of what you suggest. no impulse, do research, skip and une out ads. except for the paid media to avoid ads. i use adblockers for that.

but i struggle with that other side. i'd love to earn some money on sidebusinesses like that, but i feel like making them ad supported would be close to unethical. i want people to stop paying attention to ads, not take advantage of them.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#133
It's funny to read this headline as a general statement. I work for Strivr (https://www.strivr.com/), and we make immersive training. And the same forces that make immersive games more enthralling make immersive trainings significantly more powerful as learning experiences.

So I don't know, there's definitely such a thing as immersive experiences that are harmful, but I think for educational purposes more immersive experiences are strictly better than less immersive ones. (Provided that you want to learn as fast as possible and you want to focus on learning.) Now, immersive experiences are also more expensive (especially to get right) than less immersive ones, so cost is a factor but I think we definitely want more immersive education.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#135
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blame is counterproductive. The world simply is the way it is, but it is helpful to have a realistic picture of why, and then you can make local modifications that might at least make your own life a bit nicer. In advertising's case, it's such a huge industry because it works. It moves the needle on purchasers' decisions. You can make it work a little less well on yourself with a few mental habits: never buy on impul…

i can with good conscience say that i am doing all of what you suggest. no impulse, do research, skip and une out ads. except for the paid media to avoid ads. i use adblockers for that. but i struggle with that other side. i'd love to earn some money on sidebusinesses like that, but i feel like making them ad supported would be close to unethical. i want people to stop paying attention to ads, not take advantage of t…

Not everybody wants the same things. Giving them what they want so you get what you want makes both of you better off.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#136
I agree with the sentiment that "the gaming industry has hijacked human play". The author justifies the development of his own game by the fact that "it looks like a CAD program", but I don't think that this makes the game any less immersive. Having seen a few of his dev-logs [0], I think that his goal of a 'systemic game' (if I remembered that phrase correctly) has the potential to be just as immersive.

Games with impressive graphics but no gameplay aren't known for being particularly big drains of human attention.

As another example, take the comments on the recent thread about the browser game generals.io [1]. One might say that 'it looks like a spreadsheet with conditional formatting', but it doesn't make it any less addictive, according to the commenters.

[0]: https://youtube.com/watch?v=civUb-w1CFU

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38752385

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#137
post #67
post #15

While sitting with my iPad typing the other morning, something about the experience struck me in a way that it never had before. I've been typing since the early 90s, and can type around 120WPM without looking or thinking about it, and it hit me that in a very real sense, the iPad (and other computing devices) are already an extension of me. I've invested the time to integrate this hardware into my brain via the keyb…

> If I could implant a chip in my brain, and if people could control my brain with that chip, I would probably never allow it. But when that chip is outside of my brain in a device I keep in my pocket, why am I more willing to allow other entities to feed me stimuli? This definition of "feeding you stimuli" seems extremely broad to me. Are you "allowing other entities to feed you stimuli" when you listen to the radio…

> This definition of "feeding you stimuli" seems extremely broad to me.

To rein this in a bit, here's how I'm defining this: regularly "choosing" to interact with a library of content and experiences that are all engineered to evoke certain emotional responses from me as the user and get me to buy more things or change my beliefs. I put choosing in quotes because once a habit loop is established, the behavior is indistinguishable from an addiction and the choice is similar to the one made by a gambler sitting at a slot machine.

Listening to the radio, watching TV and talking to a friend all provide external stimuli. But clearly there are aspects of each of these interactions that makes them unique.

When I'm talking to my friend, I usually don't have to wonder if the things they're saying are only meant to influence my purchasing decisions, or change how I see a political candidate, or support a particular world view, etc. Some friends are good influences. Some bad. If you choose to hang around the stoner who always wears you down and gets you to smoke a joint, that particular friend might not be a good influence.

> How could you live your life without allowing other entities to feed you stimuli?

I'm not suggesting that this is possible or even desired. I'm suggesting that there are certain sources of stimuli that we deem unacceptable that are strikingly similar to stimuli that we deem acceptable and that it's not clear why we categorize them so differently.

In other words: If you would say "hell no" to a physically connected chip that feeds your brain ads for products you don't need every hour, why would you not say "hell no" to a device that could do the same thing without even needing a physically connected chip? (I'm saying this as a person who carries one of those devices, so I'm not a Luddite or claiming to have avoided anything).

> How are these examples different from what your phone is doing?

There are a myriad of differences, but I think they boil down to these key things: Ubiquity, Tracking and Personalization.

Billboards (which are ugly and often the source of controversy in communities) do not know who you are, and they are not in your pocket every minute of the day. They don't insert themselves into the middle of your interactions with friends, or follow you home.

> And don't say "notifications": you have far more control over which notifications you receive than which billboards you see.

I disagree with the premise of this objection, but notifications are only a small part of this. Most people don't turn notifications off, and app makes know this. There is a finite number of billboards you can fit on any given stretch of road, and there is an infinite number of notifications you can be subject to regardless of where you are on any given day.

Yes, you can disable notifications, and I think this is one of the simplest things people can do to interrupt the addiction loop. But many of the most popular apps carefully construct notifications that get you into the app for plausible reasons (comments on your post!) so they can then feed you the algorithmic payload.

> If I could implant a chip in my brain that allowed me to tune into any radio station I wanted and listen to it in my brain, I'd probably do that, assuming it's safe and actually under my control. I'm not seeing the dichotomy here.

I think that "assuming it's safe and actually under my control" is exactly where the radio and social media examples diverge. The point is that much of the content on social media is not safe, and you have less and less choice about what you actually see. With radio, you probably wouldn't choose to listen to the channel that airs Rush Limbaugh 24/7. With algorithmic feeds, you don't really get to choose what you see.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#138
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody disputes that entertainment has value. The article is about the fact that so much talent and resources is funneled into immersion. Using your neurosurgeon example, I posit that having fewer VR headsets will not prevent the doctor from unwinding. Nor will having mobile phones with less vibrant colors or application with lower engagement metrics.

There is a tragic flaw in your logic. There’s probably 10x engineers working on advertising then there is gaming (let alone VR). It’s not that big of an industry and doesn’t have the mass adoption attention destroying ad-driven social media does. Statistically, the neurosurgeon is unwinding on TikTok and hating themselves for it. Could VR become immersive and an ad-addled attention destroying mess? Yes we should prob…

Ironically enough, VR training for surgeons is actually booming in the medical space.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blaming consumers for the modern advertising industry is like blaming Soviet factory workers for bread lines.

Blame is counterproductive. The world simply is the way it is, but it is helpful to have a realistic picture of why, and then you can make local modifications that might at least make your own life a bit nicer. In advertising's case, it's such a huge industry because it works. It moves the needle on purchasers' decisions. You can make it work a little less well on yourself with a few mental habits: never buy on impul…

> Business owners are rewarded for shifting resources away from activities that consumers don't value highly (as evidenced by their willingness to pay for them) to ones that they do. If you feel that businesses are focusing on the wrong things, spend your money differently.

So... that's not blame? Is "businesses only do this because you tell them to, with money, so stop telling them to if you don't like it" not the intended reading of that?

My point is that the modern advertising industry is better classed as a result of large-scale structures and societal-scale rules, the same way bread lines were, than as something explained by consumer choice. I mean, FFS, the point of it is to influence consumer choice. This is like saying if the gas pedal doesn't want the car to go faster, it should stop getting pushed so much.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#140
post #16

Let's wind this back to the days when people thought reading books was an indulgent waste of time. The best artists are writing trivial drivel for women to read. The best minds are finding new ways to sell books. It's a stupid heuristical argument.

It looks like you're countering with the "it's always been the case" argument. I use it often myself, but I think it's good to realize when it's stretched too far. Yes, I'm sure there were some people in the past who said that reading books is an indulgent waste of time. I'm sure you could find articles in old newspapers. That in itself doesn't mean that working on a VR headset technology is as meaningful as working…

> I think it's good to realize when it's stretched too far.

Who is the arbiter of when it's stretched too far? I am working with the data we have to make an empirical expectation. Speculation is fine, but if we are going to make an effort to ground it in reality I feel like prior art is as the best bet we can make.

> Just because you find a similarity with something that happened in the past doesn't mean you can just abandon all critical thought.

I think I am actually applying critical thought. I am challenging a narrative that doesn't seem to have a precedent and looking at examples from the past that were similar unprecedented technological changes. This seems to be a reasonable approach to set reasonable expectations. Of course I could be wrong, but I feel like at least my pitch is based on some historic data.

FYI the book reading this wasn't just an aside in a newspaper, it was a cultural concern shared by many.

https://timeline.com/what-technology-are-we-addicted-to-this...

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