Age verification is incompatible with the internet • Hacker News Board

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#131

Post by TobyTheDog123 » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 6:56 PM UTC

huytersd wrote: post #44

TobyTheDog123 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like a lot of the comments here are said ironically but would actually be wonderful for much of society. Very tired of the libertarian arguments when they obviously don't work.

Libertarianism doesn’t work as much as communism doesn’t work.

I think those are two different scales.

Libertarianism Authoritarianism

Capitalism Communism

Usually the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle of both, which is what the United States is (though some may argue we've begun to slide towards the extremes)

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#132

Post by vlovich123 » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 7:02 PM UTC

creer wrote: post #116

vlovich123 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re thinking about AV as it’s been rolled out in the past few years in places. But the mDL / mobile passports don’t require that - it’s a signed record that a certain government agency signs. It can be something like signing what kind of vehicles you can operate but also can be just an anonymous age verification check. The standards body for this was explicitly thinking about privacy-preserving mechanisms to do AV…

In practice, how do these system expect the kids (much more technically savvy than their parents, and with a motive) not to get their hands on their parents'? (As you know, kids often get access to credit cards without parents knowledge.)

Biometrics identification required to release the record (eg the Secure Enclave in iOS could sign it)

You can believe that a standard committee of very smart people (technical and regulatory) was thinking about all these problems so saying “what about X” isn’t helpful when X is an obvious concern.

A sufficiently advanced attacker could probably figure something out (especially with these 3p apps which are bound to have security flaws), but it will be out of reach for most people (these apps will hopefully be discontinued once the OS wallets integration is complete - they should only be used for pilot programs and if they’re not they will be stopped once they become a known vector of identity theft).

The harder problem is attestation for >13 services since kids that age may not have digital devices and government ID but that’s a government policy problem to figure out.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#133

Post by jstarfish » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 7:18 PM UTC

NoZebra120vClip wrote: post #124

harimau777 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that it's worth keeping in mind that that isn't always possible. For example, with foster children it is not unlikely that experience with previous parents have already given a child baggage that will make that strategy much less successful.

You're right, I mean, why should a parent even bother establishing candor, trust, and communication with their children when it is just soooo harrrrd, give up already!

You're playing at whatever the self-help equivalent of psychobabble is and are clearly not a parent, foster or otherwise. Most kids are self-centered, duplicitous sacks of bullshit. The social aspect of relationships is easily gamed and they know it.

You don't know your child until you've seen their browser history (before they've had a chance to clear it). Take a peek sometime.

I let my kids think I trust them, but I trust them about as much as the GRU. They think I actually believe that they don't have Discord installed, but I already know what they changed the icon and app label to. They think I believe they're not uploading videos to YouTube, but they are. They have no qualms about lying to me-- and I have a good relationship with these two.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#134

Post by anonzzzies » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 7:32 PM UTC

huytersd wrote: post #89

anonzzzies wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the my friends when I was a high school kid in the 80s had access to porn, alcohol, weed and were having sex under 18. All not allowed by their/my parents, but no ended up even remotely bad or damaged. It’s just growing up.

But did they have access to 24/7 always on social media shaming and bullying?

No but is this 18 check for all social media? I didn’t get that from the article. I would vote for that over checks for porn.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#135

Post by bee_rider » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 7:44 PM UTC

ttyprintk wrote: post #130

bee_rider wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a fine system for a private company to sell to their customers. There shouldn’t be a law about this, though.

I think you both agree on that. Whether “Software and device vendors already provide all the necessary tools.“ is the question.

They were making a rhetorical point along the lines of “if the politicians actually were engaging in good faith on this stuff, they’d propose this other more effective plan.” I agree with the sentiment that the politicians aren’t engaging in good faith here. We are basically on the same side.

However I disagree that the plan would really be able to accomplish what legislators claim they are trying to accomplish, so I don’t think this line of argument works as a rhetorical device.

I’m not sure that “Whether Software and device vendors already provide all the necessary tools” is really the sticking point… sorry, I’d write more, but actually I’m not sure how that is supposed to link into the argument so I’m not sure where to go with it.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#136

Post by jstarfish » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 7:51 PM UTC

stjohnswarts wrote: post #64

huytersd wrote: post #38

South Korea has been doing it for years. To get on the internet, you need to sign in with your ID.

Sounds like fascism to me. More like what N. Korea does, you'd think that S. Korea would be averse to adding more fascism to their lives rather than less.

[dead]

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#137

Post by grayhatter » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 7:51 PM UTC

jstarfish wrote: post #133

NoZebra120vClip wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, I mean, why should a parent even bother establishing candor, trust, and communication with their children when it is just soooo harrrrd, give up already!

You're playing at whatever the self-help equivalent of psychobabble is and are clearly not a parent, foster or otherwise. Most kids are self-centered, duplicitous sacks of bullshit. The social aspect of relationships is easily gamed and they know it. You don't know your child until you've seen their browser history (before they've had a chance to clear it). Take a peek sometime. I let my kids think I trust them, but…

> Most kids are self-centered, duplicitous sacks of bullshit.

Most children aren't. You're definitely telling on yourself more than commenting on how children behave. Trust is a shared activity. If you treat children like you'd treat the GRU that's exactly how they'll behave.

> and I have a good relationship with these two.

If you have a good relationship, why are they lying to you? Is it because they don't trust you? Is that because you don't trust them? I wonder who started it. I'm pretty sure you'll blame them again, so I'll pre-answer for that. "they proved it already by making [some mistake]" ...yeah, kids will make mistakes, but when you forgive them, and believe in them, and prove that they can trust you, they will. By treating them like the GRU all you do is prove they can't trust you. You're supposed to be the adult, right? You have to go first, children are only able to copy what they see.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#138

Post by _Parfait_ » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 7:52 PM UTC

throwaway8877 wrote: post #11

If every person can be identified uniquely and mapped to a real person, and this is what age verification will come down to, then each of us can be fed with different kind of bullshit, our thoughts can be even more easily manipulated systematically. That is the price to pay.

And what's happening now?

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#139

Post by bee_rider » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 7:58 PM UTC

gary_0 wrote: post #69

bee_rider wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it isn’t a very viable option. I understand the logic of saying to them “here’s a more effective solution, which you would have suggested if you were operating in good faith,” but I think that your solution wouldn’t work, which causes the whole argument to unravel.

iPhones are pretty locked down, and stand a good chance of allowing parents to totally block adult content. Android and general-purpose computers less so, naturally. But VPNs have already come up as the way around these new age-verification laws, and that didn't stop them. Kids can always find ways around this stuff (when I was in high school eons ago, just about everyone was underage drinking, and a lot of my friend…

Right. And this is just in phones, which are already a pretty locked down ecosystem.

In general, there would be more implementation problems the farther we look away from there: what about things like laptops, particularly laptops with Linux, or raspberries pi, or heck, an Analogue Pocket… there’s a whole range of computing devices; locking down all this stuff would be a huge pain-in-the-butt process. Rather than have some legislatively confusing mess where every device manager has to wonder if they are responsible for implementing some giant DRM scheme, we’re better off just letting the market handle it.

Re: Age verification is incompatible with the internet

#140

Post by nitwit005 » Sat, Jan 06, 2024, 8:01 PM UTC

dmm wrote: post #8

JohnMakin wrote: post #4

Parents and caretakers have the ability to restrict children’s content on any device a child has access to. The burden should be on them to ensure their child is not consuming porn. It shouldn’t be everyone else’s problem that people are unwilling to parent their children.

> any device a child has access to. That's not the world we live in today. Stores local to me will sell a (terrible but internet capable) phone for $35 to anyone. So you are proposing moving the age verification to the device purchasing stage?

The kids could also pay an adult to get past the age verification check for them too.

Once you get to a state where the kid is unsupervised, is determined to break the rules, and has money to help them do it, they're going to succeed.