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I forked SteamOS for my living room PC

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Re: I forked SteamOS for my living room PC

#131

Post by developerDan »

bisby wrote: post #93
developerDan wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don’t people like Linux? Because it takes 8 bloody commands to do something as simple as add a new drive whereas Windows you can just open disk utility and format. I bounced off Linux a few weeks ago over this. It’s for people who want to tinker more than actually use the system.

That's untrue though. Linux has a disk utility (I use gparted personally). And you can surely do it on the command line in a single command. On Linux you could automate that task. How would you propose automating "open disk utility and click a few buttons" on Windows? This is less of a "Linux can't" issue and more of a "I quickly know how to do it on Windows after years of experience and I don't know how to do it on…

When I Googled how to complete this task I came across multiple results all of which suggesting to use a string of CLI commands. GParted was suggested in some of the results but it wasn’t installed by default on the distro I was recommended (Lubuntu) so I had to punch in even more commands to get it installed. Then after creating the partition it was still unusable until I mounted the drive (which wasn’t clear until after Googling why I can’t use it). Mounting required yet more commands. I did a cursory glance at the GUI buttons on GParted and didn’t see a simple mounting option. If you can’t mount in GParted then my claim still stands that it’s much more effort, and obscure, than Windows which automatically “mounts” the drive so to speak, when you create the partition.

Re: I forked SteamOS for my living room PC

#132

Post by pjmlp »

nindalf wrote: post #104
pjmlp wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pity that it solidifies Windows as the top PC gaming OS, that all studios should care about. Let Valve do the needful for running them under GNU/Linux, if at all.

You’re missing the bigger picture. Yes, developers really appreciate that their games work seamlessly on the Steam Deck and Linux with no effort on their part. But there are a couple of knock on effects. One is that developers now a specific hardware + software combo to test their games with. Even if it’s the same build they’re sending out, they’re still testing their game on the Deck and fixing issues, leading to a…

Valve adocates are the ones failing to learn from OS/2 history, "it does Windows better than Windows".

Studios don't care about native GNU/Linux, despite the games being shipped with Android/NDK, PlayStation POSIX environment, and the available APIs on Switch OS.

All of them much easier than porting from Windows/XBox, almost straight ports if coming from Android/NDK.

Re: I forked SteamOS for my living room PC

#133

Post by developerDan »

freedomben wrote: post #109
developerDan wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don’t people like Linux? Because it takes 8 bloody commands to do something as simple as add a new drive whereas Windows you can just open disk utility and format. I bounced off Linux a few weeks ago over this. It’s for people who want to tinker more than actually use the system.

You bounced quickly then without trying very hard. Gnome comes with a GUI disk utility tool pre-installed that is easy enough for a Windows user ;-)

I was recommended a distro that doesn’t use Gnome (Lubuntu). The system I was working with is very old and some light research made it seem like Gnome is pretty resource heavy.

Re: I forked SteamOS for my living room PC

#134

Post by embik »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #118

Interesting read! The A/B upgrade sounds a bit overkill, you can always just pop up a live distro or install a recovery system (on an old version) in a partition in case something goes wrong. I recently moved to Arch after a few years of NixOS (preceded by years of Arch) and I think the fears of the author are misplaced. Arch is definitely a very serious and mature distro and I'd trust them more than Valve. The quali…

> The A/B upgrade sounds a bit overkill, you can always just pop up a live distro or install a recovery system (on an old version) in a partition in case something goes wrong.

You and I can, the overwhelming majority of computer users cannot. Valve clearly focuses on building for the average person, something that Linux distributions (as much as I love them) still don’t really do (well).

The system automatically recovering from a failed upgrade is essential in a low-maintenance OS at this point.

Re: I forked SteamOS for my living room PC

#135

Post by accelbred »

glitchcrab wrote: post #97
smoldesu wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> built on Arch, a bad call IMHO. I'd be curious to hear why. Arch deserves it's reputation for poor stability, but for Valve's application with OSTree and immutable root should work fine. For users who don't want to tinker, they can receive a quality first-party experience with smooth upgrades. Users that do want to tinker are largely funneled into using Flatpak or AppImage, which are much more stable than AUR packa…

Can we please stop with the FUD around Arch and poor stability? It's an old meme which will never die, but it has no basis in reality. I've been using Arch on my personal and work laptops for probably 7 years now and the only time it had been a problem has been due to layer 8 issues and doing something stupid. I certainly wouldn't be using it for work if it was unstable.

I used Arch for years, and left it due to poor stability. Every time I would try to use an AUR app it would be broken and need re-installing. Sure the non-AUR stuff was mostly fine, but a lot of necessary applictions are in AUR, and AUR is touted as a major selling point of Arch. When there was an issue during a system update, recovering the system was a mess. I also cannot call it stable when you can't update one application without updating the rest of the system.

I switched to Gentoo and it fixed all the issues I was encountering with Arch, and was more stable. Now I'm on NixOS, which is far more stable than Arch or Gentoo were.

Now, that said, the way SteamOS uses it, I don't see any issues. With an immutable system, A/B updates, and tested images, the compatibility and update issues are solved. Using flatpak for user applications solves the rest of the noted issues. Would be ideal if I could install with Nix instead of Flatpak, but ran into some trouble there.

Re: I forked SteamOS for my living room PC

#136

Post by stavros »

embik wrote: post #134
jokethrowaway wrote: post #118

Interesting read! The A/B upgrade sounds a bit overkill, you can always just pop up a live distro or install a recovery system (on an old version) in a partition in case something goes wrong. I recently moved to Arch after a few years of NixOS (preceded by years of Arch) and I think the fears of the author are misplaced. Arch is definitely a very serious and mature distro and I'd trust them more than Valve. The quali…

> The A/B upgrade sounds a bit overkill, you can always just pop up a live distro or install a recovery system (on an old version) in a partition in case something goes wrong. You and I can, the overwhelming majority of computer users cannot. Valve clearly focuses on building for the average person, something that Linux distributions (as much as I love them) still don’t really do (well). The system automatically reco…

I can too, but I have better things to do than fix boot issues on my Steam Deck. I just want it to work.

Re: I forked SteamOS for my living room PC

#137

Post by jauntywundrkind »

toxicunderGroov wrote: post #73

bazzite.gg alsof does this very well. On AMD hardware it did 120hz VRR out of the box and u can alpha test HDR support.

Hadn't heard of Bazzite.

> Bazzite is an OCI image that serves as an alternative operating system for the Steam Deck, and a ready-to-game SteamOS-like for desktop computers, living room home theater PCs, and numerous other handheld PCs.

https://github.com/ublue-os/bazzite/

Worth visiting the readme even if not interested. There's a huge list of included stuff, and a lot of it seems really cool.and helpful (for gamers or streamers mostly).

Re: I forked SteamOS for my living room PC

#138

Post by jwells89 »

Filligree wrote: post #125
jwells89 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing so requires a SteamVR headset, though. I’m using a Quest 2 which only works well with Windows. Up to date compelling SteamVR options are starting to appear however so I might see if I can move over to one of those in the next year or two.

I haven't tried the quest link thing in years, and last I did it dropped FPS a lot vs. using SteamVR. Has that improved?

Not sure either but people with Indexes, Vives, etc seem to be competitive on the Beat Saber leaderboards so any loss can’t be too bad.

Re: I forked SteamOS for my living room PC

#139

Post by LegitShady »

hhh wrote: post #70
ho_schi wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/1154 You can install it upon Arch from AUR. Putting that aside: Windows users always find a reason not to switch to Linux because some missing feature . In two years? There will be another new feature or game on Windows. I remember people insisting on using Windows because it support their „3D-Shutter glasses“ or their card from Nvidia. Either you want use Linux…

I don’t want to tweak stuff for a week to get a comparable experience playing games to a fresh W11 install.

to be fair a fresh W11 install still doesn't have a usable taskbar or start menu - you have to install explorer patcher to get those back.

Re: I forked SteamOS for my living room PC

#140

Post by Adverblessly »

freedomben wrote: post #113
bee_rider wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure why people are trying to convince you; Linux is free so there really isn’t any benefit to us Linux users or to the Linux developers if you switch… Valve should be the only one that is worried about your opinion here. I think they develop SteamOS as a backup plan, though, in case Microsoft ever starts to take their own App Store seriously.

That is surely part of the consideration, but certainly not all. Some engineers at Valve (especially the head honcho Gabe Newell) are legit Linux people (Debian IIRC). They believe in it, and I love them for it

I don't dispute your claims, but I remember very clearly that back then it seemed obvious that SteamOS was a response to the Microsoft Store and a fear that Microsoft would mandate that all software on Windows come from the Microsoft Store.

While that was obviously speculation, at least the dates match up (October 26, 2012 for Microsft Store launch and December 13, 2013 from SteamOS launch according to Wikipedia)

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