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Tech's DEI backlash is here

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Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#131

Post by DebtDeflation »

IMO, an approach to DEI that would be both ethical and effective in meeting its objectives would include the following: primary school initiatives to get young girls and minorities interested in STEM topics, secondary school initiatives to encourage the same to choose (and prepare them for) a STEM major in college, corporate recruiting initiatives to broaden the pool of applicants beyond the typical target schools, employee support initiatives to give them the tools they need to succeed and advance in their careers. It has to start early.

Instead we get quotas for college admission, hiring, and promotion. Then, when the quotas aren't met because the candidate pools are way too small, we tell admissions officers and hiring managers to "stop putting up white males". Like everything else in corporate America, it just becomes a metric to be gamed.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#132

Post by verdverm »

bad_username wrote: post #127
verdverm wrote: post #36

My $0.02 DEI is good in principle but poorly executed. Diversity is good for business. You want people from different backgrounds and different ways of thinking. But we have had a problem in tech of hiring only people like we already have, whether it be age, attitude, or race. At the same time, the DEI initiatives went too far. I am ok with racial targets that try to bring the company numbers closer to the local geog…

DEI is not good in principle. It rests on the ultimate conspiracy theory that any deviation from an "ideal" composition of a team or company must be the result of some active discrimination. It doesn't really bother proving this huge assumption before prescribing heavy-handed, costly and humiliating countermeasures. It rarely bothers justifying the "ideal" composition, either. There IS discrimination in the workplace…

You are describing an implementation, one that is common, at least in the myth. I have not experienced this myth personally. I dislike your take as much as the ones from overzealous activists the have permeated HR.

Both sides need to chill their tone and rhetoric. DEI done right starts by ceasing the demonization of the other side and coming together to talk like adults and find common ground.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#133

Post by verdverm »

annexrichmond wrote: post #84
verdverm wrote: post #36

My $0.02 DEI is good in principle but poorly executed. Diversity is good for business. You want people from different backgrounds and different ways of thinking. But we have had a problem in tech of hiring only people like we already have, whether it be age, attitude, or race. At the same time, the DEI initiatives went too far. I am ok with racial targets that try to bring the company numbers closer to the local geog…

> Diversity is good for business. It's not clear to me that it is either good or bad for business. Why is this stated as a matter of fact. And please spare me links to studies funded by special interest groups. > You want people from different backgrounds and different ways of thinking. Define "different backgrounds". Why is only reduced to the color of someone's skin or sex? Why not people who grow up as Atheist, Ch…

> Define "different backgrounds"

In the most broadest sense, along all the dimensions. Including both what bad DEI is talking about and what you are talking asking about.

> If you are hiring the first 5 employees of a company you started, I think DEI will be the last thing on your mind.

100%, as for when, always part of the culture so it never needs to be top of mind. I think it likely sufficient to root out bigots, zealots, and those who discriminate. At some point the scale does grow large enough that you need people who's job is to help standardize and facilitate the process. The bad DEI did not do this well, I've seen it done really well personally.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#134

Post by nec4b »

DebtDeflation wrote: post #131

IMO, an approach to DEI that would be both ethical and effective in meeting its objectives would include the following: primary school initiatives to get young girls and minorities interested in STEM topics, secondary school initiatives to encourage the same to choose (and prepare them for) a STEM major in college, corporate recruiting initiatives to broaden the pool of applicants beyond the typical target schools, e…

[flagged]

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#135

Post by nec4b »

narutosasuke wrote: post #118
annexrichmond wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Diversity is good for business. It's not clear to me that it is either good or bad for business. Why is this stated as a matter of fact. And please spare me links to studies funded by special interest groups. > You want people from different backgrounds and different ways of thinking. Define "different backgrounds". Why is only reduced to the color of someone's skin or sex? Why not people who grow up as Atheist, Ch…

> It's not clear to me that it is either good or bad for business. Why is this stated as a matter of fact. And please spare me links to studies funded by special interest groups. Not the poster and going to try to read the last sentence with positive intent. You can find the benefits in most industries where you are providing a product to be used by the general public. The design of products come from the vantage of…

It is funny that all the biggest and most successful companies in the USA became such, before there was something like DEI. Or if you look at foreign successful companies which are basically monoliths in regards to DEI.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#136

Post by Brian_K_White »

unwise-exe wrote: post #113
EA-3167 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO some topics can't be meaningfully discussed between a group of largely anonymous people, especially when the existence of... hostile interlocutors is always present. There are people I know offline who I'd avoid discussing these topics with, never mind millions of people I've never met, who's body language I can't see, and who's sincerity I can't identify. As you said, it's tiring, and there are other things to t…

This seems more like a topic that can only be discussed anonymously, lest someone take offense and start a pressure campaign against one's employer. > hostile interlocutors A strong noise filter is indeed required.

A personal noise filter does not address the problem of instigators. The problem is not that you don't like what they say, the problem is what they say to everyone else and what effect that has.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#137

Post by gmm1990 »

nec4b wrote: post #134
DebtDeflation wrote: post #131

IMO, an approach to DEI that would be both ethical and effective in meeting its objectives would include the following: primary school initiatives to get young girls and minorities interested in STEM topics, secondary school initiatives to encourage the same to choose (and prepare them for) a STEM major in college, corporate recruiting initiatives to broaden the pool of applicants beyond the typical target schools, e…

[flagged]

If a young woman was interested in STEM and saw your comment it would be a reason for them not to go into STEM. That is bad. It pushes someone away from what they might be interested in.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#138

Post by nec4b »

gmm1990 wrote: post #137
nec4b wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If a young woman was interested in STEM and saw your comment it would be a reason for them not to go into STEM. That is bad. It pushes someone away from what they might be interested in.

Why? I'm saying they can do what they want. You are basically pushing them into something.

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#139

Post by [deleted] »

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #49
throaweee123 wrote: post #24

"Due to the current economic situation we don't have new headcount for our org however feel free to reach out if you have a diverse candidate that would be interested in joining" From a director during a all-hands. "We have already selected a male candidate for the internship so it'd be best if the next one was a woman" From my manager's manager. "Your no-hire vote should have more justification since the candidate i…

I don’t see why you need legal protections. A diversity of thought can bring value. If the manager said, “We currently only have staff with public sector experience. We don’t have headcount for more folks. But let me know if you have someone with private sector experience. They are extremely rare, and could really open up the way we solve the problem.” Would that offend you in the same way?

[deleted]

Re: Tech's DEI backlash is here

#140

Post by gmm1990 »

nec4b wrote: post #138
gmm1990 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a young woman was interested in STEM and saw your comment it would be a reason for them not to go into STEM. That is bad. It pushes someone away from what they might be interested in.

Why? I'm saying they can do what they want. You are basically pushing them into something.

Things that are considered normal in society like women not being interested in it and engineering are self reinforcing. I don't know of any studies that indicate they shouldn't be doing those jobs, just that they are more likely not too. This robs women of higher paying stem jobs and society of more people to do those jobs.
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