Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#131

Post by pixl97 » Thu, Dec 21, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

stavros wrote: post #115

pixl97 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this is how all operating systems work. If Microsoft wanted to give special apps access to your private data without asking, then that is exactly what would happen. The same thing is true in Linux, other than we'd expect that the open source nature would have users going "Yo, WTF"

That's like saying "because that's how locks work, the company who sold you the lock can just come open your door".

This is exactly correct, though you don't want to admit it's the case it seems.

I mean, we just allowed Car Manufactures to pump as much contact data and location data as they can off your phones and sell it to whomever they'd like risk free and legally.

We have laws against physical trespassing, but when it comes to 'data' trespassing on applications that you install or come with your phone we're still in the wild west.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#132

Post by lern_too_spel » Thu, Dec 21, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

tqwhite wrote: post #119

My iPhone asks if I want to allow an app to access the Local Network. I assume that this 1) means that Apple does cover this situation and 2) my opinion that the phrasing "Apple allows applications to track user locations without authorization" is contemptible are both true.

That's a different permission. My understanding is it is not necessary to read WiFi details, which just needs an entitlement from Apple and no user prompt.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#133

Post by n2d4 » Thu, Dec 21, 2023, 4:49 PM UTC

paxys wrote: post #105

Reading through the linked docs, this API seems to specifically be for apps created by owners of WiFi hotspots to help users connect to those hotspots ( https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension/h... ). > NEHotspotHelper allows your app to participate in the process of authenticating with hotspot networks, that is, Wi-Fi networks where the user must interact with the network to gain access to the wid…

I don't know about Alipay, but afaict WeChat needs this feature for WeChat Wifi, which lets users connect to internet hotspots from their WeChat accounts https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=MzI1NjA0NzQzOQ==&mid=265026...

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#134

Post by lern_too_spel » Thu, Dec 21, 2023, 4:50 PM UTC

tinus_hn wrote: post #81

stavros wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Get a list of visible SSIDs" is exactly how phones derive your location. There's little distinction between seeing SSIDs and seeing GPS coordinates for 99.9% of the population.

Back in the real world SSIDs are a very coarse and not very reliable way of locating devices. You are exaggerating.

It gives enough details that Android used to require apps to obtain ACCESS_FINE_LOCATION permission in order to get that information before splitting it off into its own permission. https://developer.android.com/develop/connectivity/wifi/wifi...

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#135

Post by talldatethrow » Thu, Dec 21, 2023, 4:51 PM UTC

stavros wrote: post #59

MBCook wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certain apps have always gotten special treatment. If it’s big enough to mess with phone sales they’re allowed nonsense a normal dev would be permanently banned for. Ex: all the stuff FB has been caught doing over the years My understanding (no first hand experience) is that WeChat and Alipay are basically required in China. If a phone doesn’t have them, it’s worthless and won’t sell. So naturally they too can do non…

Why does apple get to decide which app gets automatic access to my private data, on my device, without needing to ask me?

Probably because you asked them for permission to use their phone and software.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#136

Post by sonicanatidae » Thu, Dec 21, 2023, 4:52 PM UTC

[flagged]

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#137

Post by squarefoot » Thu, Dec 21, 2023, 4:53 PM UTC

nottorp wrote: post #6

coldcode wrote: post #2

FYI, that API requires entitlements to be used, which are only available if you request them from Apple and justify their use. It's not a general-purpose API any app can use.

> Adding another layer to the discussion is the fact that major apps like WeChat and Alipay have already implemented this capability. So only the big apps can spy on you? The poster is Chinese so he cares about those 2, but how about facebook and google?

Spyware can be hidden in every piece of closed software, hardware, firmware with access to communications, so unless someone makes a 100% open device, from the first bit to the last screw, there's no 100% guarantee to be free from spyware.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#138

Post by mannyv » Thu, Dec 21, 2023, 4:54 PM UTC

They're not tracking locations because they're not using GPS.

They are checking the environment for stuff that might have known locations, which is different. You can do the same with bluetooth/BLE.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#139

Post by freedomben » Thu, Dec 21, 2023, 4:55 PM UTC

stavros wrote: post #59

MBCook wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certain apps have always gotten special treatment. If it’s big enough to mess with phone sales they’re allowed nonsense a normal dev would be permanently banned for. Ex: all the stuff FB has been caught doing over the years My understanding (no first hand experience) is that WeChat and Alipay are basically required in China. If a phone doesn’t have them, it’s worthless and won’t sell. So naturally they too can do non…

Why does apple get to decide which app gets automatic access to my private data, on my device, without needing to ask me?

I've asked similar questions before and am usually told that this is how Apple does things and it's what makes their users happy. It's in fact why they love and choose Apple. They trust Apple to make the right decisions, and this is in fact a big part of the value add of their products. This is much related to the walled garden approach. For example, ask about why sideloading should remain not an option at all, rather than something like Android where you can enable it if you want to but "Grandma" isn't going to accidentally do it. Apple users actively don't want that capability. It doesn't make sense to me, but that's because "I'm not their target market."

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#140

Post by electric_mayhem » Thu, Dec 21, 2023, 4:55 PM UTC

BobaFloutist wrote: post #98

electric_mayhem wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does your employer have a donation matching program? It’s a great time of year to donate to the EFF.

It's so hard to prioritize non-profits these days. EFF is huge and super relevant, but so are aid programs to Ukraine or I/P, and reproductive health orgs. There's a lot going on I want to contribute to.

I’m with you on all those.

I just did my end of year matching gift donating through the portal at work.

I guess I left out Ukraine, which needs fixing. But did get FSF, EFF, the regional food bank, and a niche human rights org.

Let me tell you, causing my employer donate to the EFF in particular is always one of the high points of my year. Even better when there’s 2:1 matching, which they seem to not offer this year (I dig deep in my own pocket when they do have that because, hey, 2:1!). It’s hilarious and oh so satisfying.