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More product, fewer product managers

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Re: More product, fewer product managers

#131

Post by flappyeagle »

ath3nd wrote: post #70
bjornsing wrote: post #63

I've spent some time interacting with product managers as an engineering manager, or head of a functional area. I've also been "acting" PM for an internal product at a medium size tech company. I think product management entails some of the most important things a company does. But it's really hard work, and many less capable PMs gravitate away from it and more towards either "driving" (i.e. micromanaging) the engine…

I don't believe in Product Managers or Project Owners as a net good towards building a better product or a better company. The most successful teams I have been in had no dedicated product role, instead, all decisions were made by the developers. My current view is best to remove all type of non technical people or even mildly technical people from the developers' way and let them build in peace.

The best PMs I’ve worked with were HIGHLY technical, either in the same areas as the developers or in adjacent areas, like product design, or the domain of the product

PM for retail company did long stints in merchandising at Costco

PM for spreadsheet company was a former banking analyst

Most companies hire under qualified generalist PMs who have to learn everything about their market from scratch; it’s very challenging and prone to outright failure.

Hire fewer PMs, and make sure they bring a key skill to the table. Let Microsoft and Google train the juniors.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#132

Post by bjornsing »

epgui wrote: post #106
bjornsing wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the good side of politics, and I agree: it is everywhere humans are trying to accomplish things together. But when I say gravitate away from hard work towards playing politics it refers to something else of course. Getting others to do your work while still claiming credit is one example.

It’s not the good side of politics, it’s how it’s defined in textbooks.

I don’t think those textbooks attempt to define the concept in this context. Like it or not, “corporate politics” is a well established term.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#133

Post by bhpm »

jack_riminton wrote: post #127
Hippocrates wrote: post #112

The problem with most PMs is that they are not doing boots-on-the-ground work. A good PM should be constantly bridging the gap between engineering and the user. 1. Map the product or idea being built to those who will use it. Present it, get users feelings on it, if it is viable and needed. Throughout development, gather continuous feedback by demoing, shadowing, and adapting to new feedback. Plan and execute a launc…

Having been a PM (now developer) the problem I faced was half the time I was having to provide documentation, communications and evidence for my managers. Which is of course fine but when you have HIPPO syndrome (HIghest Paid Person in the Office) who likes to make product decisions then you have to spend most of your time covering your back and managing up PMs get a lot of stick, sometimes justified, but they're jus…

Yep. And then you leave and the engineers start complaining they have to play office politics to get things done. :)

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#134

Post by bjornsing »

legendofbrando wrote: post #78
epgui wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics is what happens when you have limited resources and you need to decide where to allocate them. Politics are everywhere humans are.

Yes to this. Too many people complain about politics as if it is some “outside” force and not simply implicit in the way that human beings organize diversified interests. Since each of us can only embody our own world view, politics is inevitable. I understand that what people typically mean is people who are “too political” where the pushing for interests stops being in service of some goal and starts to become its…

> I understand that what people typically mean is people who are “too political” where the pushing for interests stops being in service of some goal and starts to become its own point.

It typically doesn’t stop being in service of some goal, but rather becomes entirely self-serving.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#135

Post by dickersnoodle »

tashoecraft wrote: post #124
ath3nd wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In that scenario, who is driving product requirements? The developer teams, who else? You build it, you need to know what you are building, right? I find it fascinating that the dev community that gobbled so easily "You build it, you run it", doesn't question why we are not being trusted with knowing and determining what to be built in the first place. > For example, in an area with strict financial/regulatory comp…

Sounds like you haven’t had a good PM or a job that supports having one. Saying it’s often some new grad is like saying there’s no point having an on shore dev team because the devs are often fresh out of university. If you continually hire terribly you’re going to have a bad result. A PM should become the subject matter expert in the product they are developing. They should be able to field questions on most every p…

>It’s like saying you don’t need a qa team because the developers tested it.

Strangely enough, that's happening at a few companies (run by Amazon refugees IIRC) where they think that making devs do QA and removing QA/QE roles will speed delivery. I'm in one of those companies now, and I'm waiting for the #FAFO loop to happen.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#136

Post by ath3nd »

growse wrote: post #123
ath3nd wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't consider the engineering having a deep understanding of the domain and compliance to be a "encumberance". The more engineers get into the domain themselves, the more they can make deep decisions about how to build the most effective solutions. > This let's you focus on the craft of delivery I don't give a rat's ass about the craft of delivery! What a reductionist thing to think of engineers as "delivery machi…

> I care only about one thing: solving the problem! Who prioritises the problems?

The developer teams, of course. They are solving the problems, so why should they not prioritize them? They just need to have other parts of the org heard, but if you are solving it, you get to choose how to do it, in what order and with what priority.

If that's not to somebody's liking, they are welcome to prioritize and solve the problems themselves.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#137

Post by martin_drapeau »

Hippocrates wrote: post #112

The problem with most PMs is that they are not doing boots-on-the-ground work. A good PM should be constantly bridging the gap between engineering and the user. 1. Map the product or idea being built to those who will use it. Present it, get users feelings on it, if it is viable and needed. Throughout development, gather continuous feedback by demoing, shadowing, and adapting to new feedback. Plan and execute a launc…

A great way to solve for this in B2B, is to hire a customer and train them as PM. They will hit the ground running much faster to bridge the gap.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#138

Post by blehn »

Hippocrates wrote: post #112

The problem with most PMs is that they are not doing boots-on-the-ground work. A good PM should be constantly bridging the gap between engineering and the user. 1. Map the product or idea being built to those who will use it. Present it, get users feelings on it, if it is viable and needed. Throughout development, gather continuous feedback by demoing, shadowing, and adapting to new feedback. Plan and execute a launc…

My experience (FAANG) has been the opposite. PMs want to dream up features and put together a roadmap and then they think their work is done. A great PM is both creating a vision or plan and guiding the execution and iteration. The plan is the 20%.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#139

Post by kylecazar »

Hippocrates wrote: post #112

The problem with most PMs is that they are not doing boots-on-the-ground work. A good PM should be constantly bridging the gap between engineering and the user. 1. Map the product or idea being built to those who will use it. Present it, get users feelings on it, if it is viable and needed. Throughout development, gather continuous feedback by demoing, shadowing, and adapting to new feedback. Plan and execute a launc…

I'm a PM (I now exclusively look for the 'technical' qualifier before any role I consider) -- I could not agree more with what you wrote. The last paragraph particularly.

Lately, I've been responsible for mentoring other PM's. Sure there's the widely shared roadmap, but also -- I can't tell you how many documents and sheets are created that are literally never seen again by anyone other than me, and I get the feeling were created to demonstrate that they are working. It's a habit I try to break.

The reason I advocate for technical product management so strongly is I've (over)simplified the problem in my head to be that some PM's are stuck at that high level of abstraction because they're unable to communicate with their teams on the detailed technical matters on a daily basis. So they end up in a weird grey area of project/product management.

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