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Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

electrek.co

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Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> using ethernet and PoE means you don’t have to run one off wires to each device, they can share a bus which results in half the copper being used in a lower voltage car Ethernet isn't a bus, its point to point. PoE over cat5/6 uses 4 pairs of UTP. so it might be used to join aggregate things together, but it won't be a bus. Yes, you can increase the datarate, but ethernet is fundamentally unreliable. So you'll need…

Ethernet can be used as a bus (see CSMA/CD), but if there are more than 2 nodes, performance of whole bus will go to complete shit and there is no guarantee that an ECU will transmit a single packet during its run, because that CD has no automatic arbitration, it is just random disconnection and try again. Not good for critical things like ABS. That's also whole reason why FlexRay was spawned, because even that FR is…

> CSMA/CD

Lol I'd forgotten about base-T.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#132
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No benefit? I've seen estimates of $1000 in reduced cost due to reduced copper wiring, and more importantly the labor required to string that wiring. Modern phones charge on 48V these days, so 48V parts are extremely common & cheap.

> I've seen estimates of $1000 in reduced cost due to reduced copper wiring What about aluminum wiring? Lighter, cheaper, though bulkier than equivalent copper. Aluminum wiring got a bad rep back in the day, but it seems with current electrical aluminum standards it supposedly works pretty well.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#133
post #83

The "expert" in the article got it wrong. The relationship between the voltage and the losses in the wires is not proportional. They are squared. Going from 12V to 48V is not a saving of 4x rather 16x. For some applications you could also consider Power over Ethernet in the car, get both shielded comms and power. Or can and power over twisted pair.

Hold on a second...4x the voltage means you only need 1/4th the current. The power loss in the wire is current^2 x the wire's resistance, so 1/4th the current does indeed mean 1/16th the losses.

But 1/4th the current means you can use a higher gauge wire. Looking at a table of wire gauge current capacities it looks like if your maximum current is 1/4th you can switch to wire with 1/4th the cross section. And resistance is inversely proportional to cross section, so 1/4th the cross section means 4x the resistance.

Doesn't that then bring the savings down from the 16x you would get if you just upped the voltage down to 4x?

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#134
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, automotive electrical is my job. There's quite a bit of very thick wiring in a car, not just the starter wire, but boring stuff like audio amplifiers, rear window defrosters, power seat motors. Those things don't draw a ton of power, like maybe just a few hundred watts, but at 12 volts even modest powers require extraordinarily thick wires, especially when you account for bundle derating. This requires large term…

Is Tesla's design here actually innovative or really just they're the first ones to put together a bunch of stuff that everyone knew and hasn't had the wherewithal to implement?

> or really just they're the first ones to put together a bunch of stuff that everyone knew

Thats what 80% of “innovation” is, with the exception of applied science fields.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#135
post #4

Do more stuff like this, Elon. I really don’t like not liking you.

Don't worry, it will only be a matter of time before he retweets a neo-Nazi and you can go back to hating him. Some people have way too binary a view of other people. In real life there are rarely outright villains or complete saints. Everybody is a mix of greys. You don't have to agree with everything a person does or says to appreciate their work.

Retweeting neo-nazi content is no shade of grey.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#136
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, automotive electrical is my job. There's quite a bit of very thick wiring in a car, not just the starter wire, but boring stuff like audio amplifiers, rear window defrosters, power seat motors. Those things don't draw a ton of power, like maybe just a few hundred watts, but at 12 volts even modest powers require extraordinarily thick wires, especially when you account for bundle derating. This requires large term…

Is Tesla's design here actually innovative or really just they're the first ones to put together a bunch of stuff that everyone knew and hasn't had the wherewithal to implement?

I haven't seen the document being referred to elsewhere, but I highly doubt that there's anything fundamentally new under the sun. The industry tried this before but got stuck in a first-mover-disadvantage situation, which doesn't affect Tesla as severely because they have relatively few parts in common with other cars in the first place.

So put me down in the "wherewithal" column.

That's not to discount it at all. There are some real challenges; most automotive fuses for instance, are only rated for 32-volt operation. (Fuse voltage has to do with the length of the gap opened when the element blows, and the structure's ability to withstand or staunch any arcing that may happen.) Telephone fuses would work here but they're not exactly cost-optimized, I'd love to see what they do in this space.

Switch and relay contacts too, may need different or thicker coatings to reliably break 48 volts at the number of cycles needed, but they'll be doing so at much lower currents so I think it's a net win. (Contact wear isn't my field of expertise, though.) However, mechanical switches are decreasingly relevant in the power path anyway, and FETs will definitely do better with the lower currents.

One thing I saw talked about last time, which is completely irrelevant now, is alternator load-dumps. You know, due to the lack of alternators. But in the past, with an accessory belt spinning an alternator, the power produced by the machine was dictated by the current in the field winding. Regulating the output was a simple control loop, sensing the system voltage and servoing the field current accordingly. The field winding has significant inductance so its field can't change quickly, but with a big battery sitting on the bus that didn't matter. However, if the battery lead became disconnected, and the power draw on the system decreased, the alternator would suddenly be producing too much current and unable to rapidly reduce its field, and with no battery there to absorb the overage, the result is the system bus voltage spiking as high as 120 volts, or at least that's what the load-dump test spec says you have to withstand for 400 milliseconds. In practice with incandescent bulbs and some other linear loads around, they'll typically clamp the transient to 40 volts or so, but that's still pretty harsh for stuff that's working at 14-ish.

The concern was that a 48-volt alternator could produce some truly terrifying load-dump transients. (Although I think this is also overblown; it's running at lower current so the field winding would be weaker and should be able to decrease its field faster, no? Hmm. I should do some math...)

But now that the 12v or 48v is produced by an electronic DC-DC converter running from the traction battery rather than an alternator spun by the engine, it's completely immaterial.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#137
post #133
post #83

The "expert" in the article got it wrong. The relationship between the voltage and the losses in the wires is not proportional. They are squared. Going from 12V to 48V is not a saving of 4x rather 16x. For some applications you could also consider Power over Ethernet in the car, get both shielded comms and power. Or can and power over twisted pair.

Hold on a second...4x the voltage means you only need 1/4th the current. The power loss in the wire is current^2 x the wire's resistance, so 1/4th the current does indeed mean 1/16th the losses. But 1/4th the current means you can use a higher gauge wire. Looking at a table of wire gauge current capacities it looks like if your maximum current is 1/4th you can switch to wire with 1/4th the cross section. And resistan…

Yes, typically the savings would be in the weight and physical size of the wiring harness (as well as possibly allowing for tighter bend radii). You'd design for a max amount of heat generated by the wiring harness, or possibly a max voltage drop if that's a constraint. You don't need to do heat dissipation calculations yourself, there are standards like SAE AS50881 that do the heavy lifting for you.

Edit: Smaller wire is also cheaper of course. That's probably a pretty significant upside when talking about a mass-produced vehicle.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What modern phone charges at 48V? I'm not aware of any that charge at even 20V, outside of a couple of gimmick devices. No Samsung or Apple phone charges at anywhere close to that, that's for sure.

What modern phone charges at 12v? Most phones charge at 5v. Modern USB-C chargers can charge between 5v and 20v based on configuration. Buck converts and regulators are cheap and small these days.

Most phones charge higher than 5 volts these days

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody knows if they can trust anyone, not just rich people.

Right, but it's a lot easier when you don't have anything someone else might want, much less a billion or more things.

He could give away 99.99% of his wealth, still never have to work another day in his life, and be much less of a target if he wanted to. Boo hoo the poor guy who has more money than almost anyone has ever had in the history of the earth has problems

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#140

The thing is, unless the whole industry moves together to 48V, the cost of this change for a single OEM+Tier1 would be too big.

This is basically the crux of the matter. Traditional automakers are a complex supply chain that standardises and goes to extra-ordinary lengths to reduce costs. Tesla build a tonne of their own stuff and aren't as price sensitive. The question is "Why don't we just redesign all this stuff" and the answer is "We're Ford, we make tiny margins and we can't afford to redesign our entire car every year and even if we could we get half our components from Bosch anyway". Not to mention the difficulty in convincing FuSa people your arbitrary ethernet network is safe.
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