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Deno Cron

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Re: Deno Cron

#131

Post by iteratethis »

mike_d wrote: post #43
vvpan wrote: post #37

I am a lead on a small startup team and one of the biggest pain points is dealing with infrastructure. We have no dedicated devops person and much of that work falls on me and other people who would be better writing code. I think the cloud paradigm is experiencing a shift. Few of us want to deal with cloud infrastructure (whether clicking around or via Terraform or equivalent) to execute a function every X minutes -…

It is really disappointing to me when I hear takes like this. As an industry we are splitting the roles of programmers and engineers so that programmers can just throw spaghetti at the wall and it is the engineers problem to happily run it. We need more well rounded people that also fundamentally understand how their code is executing on the backend so performance and cost can be optimized.

You're wrong.

App/mobile and web developers are stretched beyond belief as it comes to skills expected of them. This handbook gives a reasonable overview of the scope of a front-end developer:

https://thoughtworksinc.github.io/front-end-handbook/en/

Yet it's still incomplete, most of the cloud stuff isn't even included.

We're over-asking people. Take Spotify. Has an army of quite decent engineers. They had to actually build a homegrown platform to shield developers from the ops tooling madness. The average developer struggles to understand just git. Even senior ones do.

Front-end developers were a joke 20 years ago. Not taken very serious, not "real" developers. Now it's one of the most complicated programming jobs there are. You have to know...everything.

As for performance, there I do agree that a programmer has a responsibility.

Re: Deno Cron

#132

Post by ralusek »

mike_d wrote: post #43
vvpan wrote: post #37

I am a lead on a small startup team and one of the biggest pain points is dealing with infrastructure. We have no dedicated devops person and much of that work falls on me and other people who would be better writing code. I think the cloud paradigm is experiencing a shift. Few of us want to deal with cloud infrastructure (whether clicking around or via Terraform or equivalent) to execute a function every X minutes -…

It is really disappointing to me when I hear takes like this. As an industry we are splitting the roles of programmers and engineers so that programmers can just throw spaghetti at the wall and it is the engineers problem to happily run it. We need more well rounded people that also fundamentally understand how their code is executing on the backend so performance and cost can be optimized.

"Engineer" seems to be synonymous with "Dev Ops Engineer" to you.

Re: Deno Cron

#133

Post by kaishiro »

iteratethis wrote: post #131
mike_d wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is really disappointing to me when I hear takes like this. As an industry we are splitting the roles of programmers and engineers so that programmers can just throw spaghetti at the wall and it is the engineers problem to happily run it. We need more well rounded people that also fundamentally understand how their code is executing on the backend so performance and cost can be optimized.

You're wrong. App/mobile and web developers are stretched beyond belief as it comes to skills expected of them. This handbook gives a reasonable overview of the scope of a front-end developer: https://thoughtworksinc.github.io/front-end-handbook/en/ Yet it's still incomplete, most of the cloud stuff isn't even included. We're over-asking people. Take Spotify. Has an army of quite decent engineers. They had to actuall…

I’d urge you to not so flatly dismiss someone’s opinion as wrong. The situation is obviously (I would think) more nuanced than that.

I’d also argue that if a senior developer does not have control over their VCS, they should rethink their title.

These are tools in a toolbox - you don’t need to be an expert in all of them, but seniority requires, at a minimum, proficiency.

Re: Deno Cron

#134

Post by hollowturtle »

Vercel is it you? Seems like Deno Runtime is implementing what Deno Deploy would sell. While I understand it from a business perspective it totally makes me uninterested, I’d rather keep my dysfunctional marriage with AWS

Re: Deno Cron

#135

Post by dinkleberg »

iteratethis wrote: post #131
mike_d wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is really disappointing to me when I hear takes like this. As an industry we are splitting the roles of programmers and engineers so that programmers can just throw spaghetti at the wall and it is the engineers problem to happily run it. We need more well rounded people that also fundamentally understand how their code is executing on the backend so performance and cost can be optimized.

You're wrong. App/mobile and web developers are stretched beyond belief as it comes to skills expected of them. This handbook gives a reasonable overview of the scope of a front-end developer: https://thoughtworksinc.github.io/front-end-handbook/en/ Yet it's still incomplete, most of the cloud stuff isn't even included. We're over-asking people. Take Spotify. Has an army of quite decent engineers. They had to actuall…

While I agree that there is a lot to frontend development, that list is ridiculous. It is useful as far as knowing what categories of things you may come across at some point. But as far as things you need to know? This is significantly overstating it.

Re: Deno Cron

#136

Post by elbasti »

seanw265 wrote: post #97

I like a lot of what Deno does, but I'm having some trouble understanding why this (along with Deno's KV and Queues offering) is part of the Deno runtime. The blog post touts this as a feature to reduce the amount of code to get up and running, but a library would accomplish the same thing. A first-party library could even directly integrate with Deno Deploy in the same way that this appears to. Why pollute the runti…

What makes jobs "tricky" is that jobs are--by definition--entirely side-effects.

So: - What happens if the process where you called the job crashes? - What happens if the entire application crashes? - What happens if two threads/processes schedule the same job? - Should jobs be stored in memory? On disk? In a db?

Are all sort of interesting questions. Presumably the Deno runtime deals with this in a way that's opaque to the user, but that using "a library" does not, especially in a language like Javascript where processes/jobs are not really first-class.

Re: Deno Cron

#137

Post by TimTheTinker »

What I see is yet another way that the backend JS world is finally achieving something .NET had over 10 years ago[0].

Node/Deno/Bun/etc. + npm sounds super straightforward (and it is at first). But I've thought for years that it's far easier to be productive on the backend on .NET in Visual Studio, since it's simpler to design, deliver, and maintain infrastructure.

[0] https://www.hangfire.io/

Re: Deno Cron

#138

Post by yCombLinks »

dinkleberg wrote: post #135
iteratethis wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're wrong. App/mobile and web developers are stretched beyond belief as it comes to skills expected of them. This handbook gives a reasonable overview of the scope of a front-end developer: https://thoughtworksinc.github.io/front-end-handbook/en/ Yet it's still incomplete, most of the cloud stuff isn't even included. We're over-asking people. Take Spotify. Has an army of quite decent engineers. They had to actuall…

While I agree that there is a lot to frontend development, that list is ridiculous. It is useful as far as knowing what categories of things you may come across at some point. But as far as things you need to know? This is significantly overstating it.

The point being that all of those topics are a potential area to deep dive. The previous poster is disappointed that not everyone happens to deep dive on his specific area of interest, while there are likely a hundred areas other people are experts in that he has not done a deep dive for.

Re: Deno Cron

#139

Post by iteratethis »

dinkleberg wrote: post #135
iteratethis wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're wrong. App/mobile and web developers are stretched beyond belief as it comes to skills expected of them. This handbook gives a reasonable overview of the scope of a front-end developer: https://thoughtworksinc.github.io/front-end-handbook/en/ Yet it's still incomplete, most of the cloud stuff isn't even included. We're over-asking people. Take Spotify. Has an army of quite decent engineers. They had to actuall…

While I agree that there is a lot to frontend development, that list is ridiculous. It is useful as far as knowing what categories of things you may come across at some point. But as far as things you need to know? This is significantly overstating it.

Given time you will come across almost all of them. And you're expected to rapidly pick up any gaps you may have in that list.

For the simple reason that on most teams, there's no other person.

Re: Deno Cron

#140

Post by yCombLinks »

mike_d wrote: post #43
vvpan wrote: post #37

I am a lead on a small startup team and one of the biggest pain points is dealing with infrastructure. We have no dedicated devops person and much of that work falls on me and other people who would be better writing code. I think the cloud paradigm is experiencing a shift. Few of us want to deal with cloud infrastructure (whether clicking around or via Terraform or equivalent) to execute a function every X minutes -…

It is really disappointing to me when I hear takes like this. As an industry we are splitting the roles of programmers and engineers so that programmers can just throw spaghetti at the wall and it is the engineers problem to happily run it. We need more well rounded people that also fundamentally understand how their code is executing on the backend so performance and cost can be optimized.

A person can only be a true expert in a few areas. I'm interested in math and data science outside of writing business code. Maybe you're an expert in those too? I don't feel like I should be dismissed because I don't have much interest in hardware.
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