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Tax, healthcare, immigration: why Dutch people voted for Geert Wilders

theguardian.com

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Re: Tax, healthcare, immigration: why Dutch people voted for Geert Wilders

#131

Post by helij »

Anon826 wrote: post #122
fzeroracer wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally speaking, bad. Polls indicate that favorability for Brexit is probably around 35% or lower. It's been getting worse because a lot of the current crisis's the UK faces are the direct result of Brexit. Because a lot of things they took for granted in regards to stuff like the food chain or energy negotiations is something that directly impacts an individual's day to day life.

> food chain or energy negotiations The UK along with Norway export gas to EU during summer which is stored for use in winter. UK does not have expensive gas/electricity because of Brexit, it is because of Ukraine war. The rest of EU is just as bad or worse when it comes to energy prices. The economy in Germany is worse than UK this year. The latest data regarding budget deficit from France is just as bad as UK. Not…

No, I remember energy prices going up way before Ukraine war. Starting in the summer of 2021 we had multiple energy providers going bankrupt.

Re: Tax, healthcare, immigration: why Dutch people voted for Geert Wilders

#132

Post by theironhammer »

fzeroracer wrote: post #80
FooBarWidget wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the British population's attitude towards this post-Brexit reality now? Has anyone reflected on it?

Generally speaking, bad. Polls indicate that favorability for Brexit is probably around 35% or lower. It's been getting worse because a lot of the current crisis's the UK faces are the direct result of Brexit. Because a lot of things they took for granted in regards to stuff like the food chain or energy negotiations is something that directly impacts an individual's day to day life.

And don't forget the usefulness of the UK for USA is now hovering just above nil. From an Establishment point of view David Cameron has got to be the Biggest Donkey in years! And what do the Tories do, they reward him.

Re: Tax, healthcare, immigration: why Dutch people voted for Geert Wilders

#133

Post by theironhammer »

alistairSH wrote: post #99
Bostonian wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real estate investors expect to earn income from the properties they buy, and thus try to rent them out, especially when interest rates are above zero as they are now. Often the financial plan assumes that rental income will be used to pay the mortgage, property taxes, and other costs.

I assume the OP is referring to (largely Chinese) real estate buyers, where the goal isn't so much earning a return, but instead finding a safe place to stash money. I know this was reported as a problem in Vancouver, BC, but I'm unconvinced it's a true problem outside of hyper-local areas. I've also seen the same argument about luxury flats in London (mostly Middle Eastern buyers here). And of course, the reporting…

They built loads of condos in Vancouver which were only advertised for sale overseas in Asia. Residents in Canada weren't given a chance to purchase.

40% of Canadian Federal MPs are landlords.

Re: Tax, healthcare, immigration: why Dutch people voted for Geert Wilders

#134

Post by nojvek »

There is a very good chance Trump would be elected again.

For the median worker, healthcare, housing + utilities and food costs have shot up.

The cost of sustaining yourself has gone up but wages haven’t.

Yet we bring in more people to the country. I’m okay with controlled high skilled immigration but totally not okay with illegal immigration.

We should really working on policies that lead to good gradient of fixed resource ownership (land and housing, healthcare).

Re: Tax, healthcare, immigration: why Dutch people voted for Geert Wilders

#135

Post by skissane »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #98
newyankee wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada is not at all a crowded country, yet it has housing crisis. At least Netherlands had the foresight to create dense, urban spaces with cycling infrastructure and half decent public transit. All they need to do now is replicate this. The thing about environmental concerns is that the nos should be balanced with human quality of life, and in that lens the Dutch way really works better than many other developed co…

Canada and Australia are both facing a housing crisis, and that's mostly due to the fact that the country is huge, but the actually livable parts of the country are fairly small. Then add in the standard Anglo Neoliberalism and surprise surprise big money controls what little habitable space is available. I've lived in both and worked outside in -40C and +40C, and both are rough. I'd rather be in Virginia and 4 actua…

> Canada and Australia are both facing a housing crisis, and that's mostly due to the fact that the country is huge, but the actually livable parts of the country are fairly small.

I can’t speak for Canada, but in the case of Australia - there are heaps of small towns in Australia with affordable housing, it is just few people want to live in them. The median house price in Hay, NSW, is only AU$237K (US$157K). Hay is “liveable” - its climate is mild (mean min is 10 deg C, mean max is 24.3 deg C, 368.3 mm annual rainfall). It is on a major river. But, who wants to live in a town of 2500 people which is 5 hours drive from the nearest major city?

Re: Tax, healthcare, immigration: why Dutch people voted for Geert Wilders

#136

Post by [deleted] »

66fm472tjy7 wrote: post #128
petre wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apart from the economic problems that this might cause, it is simply not possible due to EU legislation. It is possible. Don't give them money and only provide basic shelter. Do you wonder why the migrants don't stay in Eastern Europe? Because here we offer accomodation in tents. There isn't enough social housing for citizens (largely Roma), let alone migrants. We have friends and neighbours from Germany who want r…

> It is possible. Don't give them money and only provide basic shelter In the EU you would have to reduce your welfare state to that level for your own citizens as well. The ECJ says[0]: > It follows that the level of social security benefits paid to refugees by the Member State which granted that status, whether temporary or permanent, must be the same as that offered to nationals of that Member State [0] https://cu…

[deleted]

Re: Tax, healthcare, immigration: why Dutch people voted for Geert Wilders

#137

Post by petre »

66fm472tjy7 wrote: post #128
petre wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apart from the economic problems that this might cause, it is simply not possible due to EU legislation. It is possible. Don't give them money and only provide basic shelter. Do you wonder why the migrants don't stay in Eastern Europe? Because here we offer accomodation in tents. There isn't enough social housing for citizens (largely Roma), let alone migrants. We have friends and neighbours from Germany who want r…

> It is possible. Don't give them money and only provide basic shelter In the EU you would have to reduce your welfare state to that level for your own citizens as well. The ECJ says[0]: > It follows that the level of social security benefits paid to refugees by the Member State which granted that status, whether temporary or permanent, must be the same as that offered to nationals of that Member State [0] https://cu…

Then maybe refuse to register them, like the Hungarian authorities do? Understaff and reduce migrant registration offices to a bare minimum like the French are doing with immigration offices.

Hungary and Poland have repeatedly boycotted and vetoed the EU's migration policies. If this gets support from a country like NL, there is hope to change the EU's ill suited Merkel/Juncker policies on migration.

The alternative is right wing populists like Wilders winning elections in more EU states. Consider LePen's FN winning the French elections for instance. In the German government there is already consensus on a stricter migration policy in order to stem support for the far right.

Russia is also using migrants to put pressure on Polish, the Baltics' and Finnish borders. We shouldn't allow this.

Re: Tax, healthcare, immigration: why Dutch people voted for Geert Wilders

#138

Post by throaway-1931 »

misja111 wrote: post #125
throaway-1931 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

> The "regulation that comes from the EU" was redacted and implemented by the Dutch government This is partially true. The directive of the regulation came from the EU, the concrete implementation from NL. And at that point it was not clear to anybody that nitrogen deposit restriction would be such an important part of it. But, in that way, the Dutch are responsible for the problems that this regulation currently cau…

> Since the regulation comes from the EU, this is not an option

You are right in that they cannot drop it, but they can amend it. The issue is that if they want to drop the nitrogen requirement they would have to come with scientific arguments on how the nitrogen limits doesn't hurt the protected areas, or alternative means to protect those areas from the nitrogen.

> The reason it is on the Dutch agenda at all, is that Dutch environmental organisations realized that nitrogen was a threat and even took the Dutch government to court to act on it

I fully agree with your point

> 18000 building projects had to be halted. That's no tiny part

I'm sorry I wasn't clear in my comment, it's definitively not a tiny part of the total building projects (for context, currently in NL there are like 75k ongoing), but of the housing crisis as a whole.

In my opinion there are many issues with housing in this country. ie. Empty houses due to investors not wanting to rent, cultural tendency for low population density projects, lack of labor, massive (badly implemented) intervention from the government, etc.

Re: Tax, healthcare, immigration: why Dutch people voted for Geert Wilders

#139

Post by throaway-1931 »

pelasaco wrote: post #126
throaway-1931 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

Around 20 million people are feed by their agriculture. I think it's fair that a country and not EU decides if they want to have local agriculture or not.

Actually is the EU (well, all the member states together) with the Common Agricultural Policy who decides, as without subsidies there would be no industry. Why do you think that the BBB (Farmer's party) doesn't want out of the EU?

> Around 20 million people are feed by their agriculture

This is a nice political slogan, however I don't think it's true. Just go to your local supermarket and try to find anything of Dutch origin besides tomatoes, meat, eggs and milk.

By the way, I support the idea of each country having their own strategies resources guaranteed, and this includes food.

The issue here in my opinion is the way they grow the produce. They could grow less, export less and pollute less. As an example: From all the EU exports, eggs of NL origin represented 42%, while poultry meat represented 23% [1] (2013 data) This makes absolutely no sense in a country of the size of the Netherlands and it makes even less sense considering they are selling them very cheap, as you can see by the low GDP impact of the whole industry.

[1] https://zootecnicainternational.com/focus-on/netherlands-lea...

Re: Tax, healthcare, immigration: why Dutch people voted for Geert Wilders

#140

Post by pelasaco »

throaway-1931 wrote: post #139
pelasaco wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around 20 million people are feed by their agriculture. I think it's fair that a country and not EU decides if they want to have local agriculture or not.

Actually is the EU (well, all the member states together) with the Common Agricultural Policy who decides, as without subsidies there would be no industry. Why do you think that the BBB (Farmer's party) doesn't want out of the EU? > Around 20 million people are feed by their agriculture This is a nice political slogan, however I don't think it's true. Just go to your local supermarket and try to find anything of Dutc…

> This is a nice political slogan, however I don't think it's true.

This well documented in many places:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2022/net... technology/

https://agriculture.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2021-12/agri-s...

I think in since the COVID pandemic and with War in Europe is clear how important is for every single country to have food security for its population. Every country is responsible for themselves. Nobody is coming to help them. So to have a good and effective Agriculture is a geopolitical advantage today.

> They could grow less, export less and pollute less.

Maybe, but it just make sense if you first reduce your costs and pressure in the housing market. Sounds like thats what the Dutch people is asking for and what the new government is saying they are going to do. If that's what really going to happen. Just the time will tell us.

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