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Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

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Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#131

> Bergson emphasised the cultural and technological context in which Einstein formulated relativity and argued that a theory of time that relies on clocks but doesn’t understand their history and significance, is incomplete This is hard to get on board with. A theory of time is incomplete without a history of clocks? Have I misunderstood?

It is incomplete in that it cannot replace older ideas of time in all contexts. It is perfectly valid/complete for use in scientific contexts. But the general population's use the idea of time for other purposes as well where Einsteins purely Relativistic formulation cannot be a stand in replacement is how I read it.

There is a distance-free notion of time which predates, and necessarily predates, all experimental theories of time. This is (loosely after Kant):

* Every thing that happens, happens at a time. Let's call those things "events" from now on. It's nonsense to claim that a thing happened, but never (at any point in time) happened.

* Every event happens in a place. It's nonsense to say that a thing happened, but nowhere happened.

* Every event MAY be related to one or more events, called its causes.

* There is an ordering on points in time, so that an event's time-point comes after the time-point of all its causes.

Without these assumptions, how are you going to do experiments, or draw any conclusions about the world? In fact you pretty much need one more, which is that every event has at least one cause (otherwise there's not much point in scientifically investigating it). These basic categories are certainly no replacement for physics. They're just the bare minimum to start an investigation into physics. But if the way you describe your physics contradicts it, then at best there's a communication problem.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s a gross misinterpretation. General relativity does show that what one observer would consider the future can exists as the present of another observer, and vice versa. As time is part of the 4 dimensional Minkowski space, saying that the future, past and present don’t coexist would be like saying left doesn’t exists when you’re going right.

It’s a misinterpretation because it uses phrases like “the future” and “the past”, when the whole insight of relativity theory is that neither term has much useful meaning.

"The future" and "the past" have very useful and well defined meanings in SR. The key insight is that they are only meaningful locally, not at the level of the entire universe as it is assumed in Newtonian mechanics.

Every possible observer has a clear view of their own past and their own future. As long as two observers are a long distance from each other, they may disagree on the order in which events that happen far away from each of them happen.

But, they will never disagree on the order in which events that are close to either of them happened. And, if they ever meet, they will have a shared notion of what is in the past and what is in the future compared to the moment of their meeting (that is, any event that is in the future compared to their meeting for one of them is also in the future after their meeting for the other).

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, just look at the dismissive, anti-philosophy tone of some of the comments in the discussion here.

Can you be more specific?

I think it's pretty clear. If I start pointing fingers it starts an argument.

Tbh I'm suspicious of your inability to find them yourself or your quest for examples.

It's a bit sealiony.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#134
post #16

I find myself becoming more and more sensitive to this basic mistake: We know relativity is wrong somehow. We know quantum mechanics is wrong somehow. They're both incredibly correct with their predictions but they don't go together, so they can't both be right and in the end they both have to be wrong somehow. Two of the places where they are both clearly somehow wrong are gravity (completely missing from QM, incomp…

> I find myself becoming more and more sensitive to this basic mistake: We know relativity is wrong somehow. We know quantum mechanics is wrong somehow. Please don't use the word "wrong". Alchemy is wrong. Astrology is wrong. Relativity and Quantum Mechanics get many things right but are probably "incomplete" in the same way Newtonian mechanics wasn't wrong, only incomplete.

> Alchemy is wrong. Astrology is wrong.

I think you are partly right. Quantum mechanics and general relativity are incomplete rather than wrong. I don’t think either has been falsified, it’s more that they are just useless in specific cases.

This is in contrast with Newtonian mechanics, which implies Galilean transformation when changing reference frames, which looks right at our usual scales, but is plainly wrong in the general case.

However, the things you mention are not even wrong. As in, they are not falsifiable so you cannot say whether they are right or wrong in theory.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you be more specific?

I think it's pretty clear. If I start pointing fingers it starts an argument. Tbh I'm suspicious of your inability to find them yourself or your quest for examples. It's a bit sealiony.

Suit yourself. I'm not going to make your case for you.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#137

We know time and space are the same fabric, because different relativistic speeds let us see the same regions of space-time with different space-time coordinates. The “angle” of time vs space is different based on perspective. Each perspective sees a different direction of time through the 4D space-time. Yet from any perspective, the space time regions coordinates are still best represented with three real values and…

In the Minkowski metric, time is negative.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty clear. If I start pointing fingers it starts an argument. Tbh I'm suspicious of your inability to find them yourself or your quest for examples. It's a bit sealiony.

Suit yourself. I'm not going to make your case for you.

Thankfully, "making my case" for a standard definition is not something I need to do.

It's very basic stuff.

If you are unable to work it out from the original link and description I gave or the previous reply, I think any more effort on my part will be a pointless time sink.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#139
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If scientists had the slightest bit of societal power, our response to climate change wouldn't be this shameful, and climate activists wouldn't be so successfully marked for the daily sessions of "5 minutes of hate". What did gain societal power is capitalism is brute-forcing its way into everything via "tech" that then pats the people in gold-plated cages, who allow their genius to be used for that on the back, whil…

> Science is a tool. More precisely, it's a method to make and improve and gauge tools. But those tools can't ask questions (we didn't somehow put there first), they cannot judge. They can tell you if something is fair according to your parameters and heuristics, but they know nothing of the inherent value in being fair, they can't answer "should I be fair?", and the same for everything else that actually matters. An…

> We cannot somehow derive some universal standard of "fairness" because no such thing exists. And we don't need philosophers to tell us that.

But you're doing it right now? I agree and would like to subscribe to your philosophy newsletter ^^ Kidding aside, I have to think of this talk by Erich Fromm, "Psychology for non-psychologists", where he starts off with saying there everybody is a bit of a psychologist, otherwise we wouldn't be able to even navigate and survive infancy. The same with what you just said and philosophy in general, I think. The only difference between a hot take on a forum (which is grounded in your experience and thoughts you had previously about it) and "a philosopher" would be doing it full time and for money I guess, or being known for your claims, but that's secondary IMO.

Re: Time Doesn’t Belong to Physics – When Bergson met Einstein

#140
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If scientists had the slightest bit of societal power, our response to climate change wouldn't be this shameful, and climate activists wouldn't be so successfully marked for the daily sessions of "5 minutes of hate". What did gain societal power is capitalism is brute-forcing its way into everything via "tech" that then pats the people in gold-plated cages, who allow their genius to be used for that on the back, whil…

> If scientists had the slightest bit of societal power, our response to climate change wouldn't be this shameful Why? Scientists are still human beings, they have partake in torture and genocide in the past. "I aim at the stars.. but sometimes I hit London" etc.

Sure, many scientists work for PR firms of the fossil fuel industry, or worse. But they rarely make a public fuss about how awesome that is and how there should be more of that, right? That is what societal power would mean IMO, having respect and attention -- not working on evil shit in the "basement" of a corporation you can only talk about in layers of rationalizations and jargon in public, if even that. They may rake in the cash and then get respect for the things that buys, but not directly for who they are and what they do.

Whereas scientists that are alarmed by things like biodiversity loss and climate change really are pounding at our door, and have societal power in some circles but not on the whole, not enough, which is made clear by the outcomes.

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