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Data accidentally exposed by Microsoft AI researchers

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Re: Data accidentally exposed by Microsoft AI researchers

#131
post #22
post #9

On a lighter note - I saw a chat message that started with "Hey dude! How is it going". I'm disappointed that the response was not https://nohello.net/en/ .

I strongly support the “no hello” concept but I also fear being seen as “that guy” so I never mention it. Sigh

I've made peace with people sending me a bare "hello" with no context. I ignore it until there's something obvious to respond to. Responding with the "no hello" webpage will often be received as (passive) aggressive, and that's a bad way to start off a conversation.

Usually within a few minutes there's followup context sent. Either the other party was already in the process of writing the followup, or they realized there was nothing actionable to respond to and they elaborate.

Re: Data accidentally exposed by Microsoft AI researchers

#132

The article tries to play up the AI angle, but this was a pretty standard misconfiguration of a storage token. This kind of thing happens shockingly often, and it’s why frequent pentests are important.

Cloud buckets have all sorts of toxic underdevelopment of features. They play make believe that they're file systems for adoption.

Like for starters, why is it so hard to determine effective access in their permissions models?

Why is the "type" of files so poorly modeled? Do I ever allow people to give effective public access to a file "type" that the bucket can't understand?

For example, what is the "type" of code? It doesn't have to be this big complex thing. The security scanners GitHub uses knows that there's a difference between code with and without "high entropy strings" aka passwords and keys. Or if it looks like data:content/type;base64, then at least I know it's probably an image.

What if it's weird binary files like .safetensors? Someone here saying you might "accidentally" release the GPT4 weights. I guess just don't let someone put those on a public-resolvable bucket, ever, without an explicit, uninherited manifest / metadata permitting that specific file.

Microsoft owns the operating system! I bet in two weeks, the Azure and Windows teams can figure out how to make a unified policy manifest / metadata for NTFS & ReFS files that Azure's buckets can understand. Then again, they don't give deduplication to Windows 11 users, their problem isn't engineering, it's the financialization of essential security features. Well jokes on you guys, if you make it a pain for everybody, you make it a pain for yourself, and you're the #1 user of Azure.

Re: Data accidentally exposed by Microsoft AI researchers

#133
post #38

A number of replies here are noting (correctly) how this doesn't have much to do with AI (despite some sentences in this article kind of implicating it; the title doesn't really, fwiw) and is more of an issue with cloud providers, confusing ways in which security tokens apply to data being shared publicly, and dealing with big data downloads (which isn't terribly new)... ...but one notable way in which it does implic…

I’ll venture that it’s at least adjacent that the indiscriminate assembly of massive, serious pluralities of the commons on a purely unilateral basis for profit is sort of a “just try and stop us” posture that whether or not directly related here, and clearly with some precedent, is looking to create a lot of this sort of thing over and above the status-quo ick.

Re: Data accidentally exposed by Microsoft AI researchers

#134
post #82
post #38

A number of replies here are noting (correctly) how this doesn't have much to do with AI (despite some sentences in this article kind of implicating it; the title doesn't really, fwiw) and is more of an issue with cloud providers, confusing ways in which security tokens apply to data being shared publicly, and dealing with big data downloads (which isn't terribly new)... ...but one notable way in which it does implic…

Occasionally, I’ll talk to someone suggesting a dynamically typed language (or stringly-typed java) for a very large scale (in developer count) security or mission critical application. This incident is a good one to point back to.

[dead]

Re: Data accidentally exposed by Microsoft AI researchers

#135
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly support the “no hello” concept but I also fear being seen as “that guy” so I never mention it. Sigh

I make it my status message.

I made it my status message as well and all I got was a complaint passed along from my manager because somebody said that it was too rude and that I should be more gentle with my fellow corporate comrades...

Re: Data accidentally exposed by Microsoft AI researchers

#136
post #75
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pentests where people actually get out of bed to do stuff (read code, read API docs etc) and then try to really hack your system are rare. Pentests where people go through the motions, send you report with a few unimportant bits highlit while patting you on the back for your exemplary security so you can check the box on whatever audit you're going through are common.

From my understanding as a non security expert: Pentest comes across more as checking all the common attack vectors don’t exist. Getting out of bed to do the so-called “real stuff” is typically called a bug bounty program or security researching. Both exist and I don’t see why most companies couldn’t start a bug bounty program if they really cared a lot about the “real stuff”

I work as pentester (as a freelance nowdays).

Getting out of bed and "real stuff" is supposed to be part of a pentest.

The problem is more the sheer amout of stuff your are supposed to know to be a pentester. Most pentesters come into the field by knowing a bit of XSS, a few thing about PHP, and SQL injections.

Then you start to work, and the clients need you to tests things like:

- compromise a full Windows Network, and take control of the Active Directory Server. Because of a misconfiguration of Active Directory Certificate Services. While dealing with Windows Defender

- test a web application that use websockets, React, nodejs, and GraphQL

- test a WindDev application, with a Java Backend on a AIX server

- check the security of an architecture with multiple services that use a Single Sign on, and Kubernetes

- exploit multiple memory corruption issues ranging form buffer overflow to heap and kernel exploitation

- evaluate the security of an IoT device, with a firmware OTA update and secure boot.

- be familiar with cloud tokens, and compliance with European data protection law.

- Mobile Security, with iOS and Android

- Network : radius, ARP cache poisoning, write a Scapy Layer for a custom protocol, etc

- Cryptography, you might need it

Most of this is actual stuff I had to work on at some point.

Even if you just do web, you should be able to detect and exploit all those vulnerabilities: https://portswigger.net/web-security/all-labs

Nobody knows everything. Being a pentester is a journey.

So in the end, most pentesters fall short on a lot this. Even with an OSCP certification, you don't know most of what you should know. I heard that in some company, people don't even try and just give you the results of a Nessus scan. But even if you are competent, sooner or later, you will run into something that you don't understand. And you have max 2 week to get familiar with it and test it. You can't test something that you don't understand.

The scanner always gives you a few things that are wrong (looking at you TLS ciphers). Even if you suck, or if the system is really secure. You can put a few things into your report. As a junior pentester, my biggest fear was always to hand an empty report. What were people going to think of you, if you work 1 week and don't find anything?

Re: Data accidentally exposed by Microsoft AI researchers

#137
post #9

On a lighter note - I saw a chat message that started with "Hey dude! How is it going". I'm disappointed that the response was not https://nohello.net/en/ .

Unfortunately, the AI researcher did not use a LLM to automatically respond the nohello content.

Re: Data accidentally exposed by Microsoft AI researchers

#138
post #75
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pentests where people actually get out of bed to do stuff (read code, read API docs etc) and then try to really hack your system are rare. Pentests where people go through the motions, send you report with a few unimportant bits highlit while patting you on the back for your exemplary security so you can check the box on whatever audit you're going through are common.

From my understanding as a non security expert: Pentest comes across more as checking all the common attack vectors don’t exist. Getting out of bed to do the so-called “real stuff” is typically called a bug bounty program or security researching. Both exist and I don’t see why most companies couldn’t start a bug bounty program if they really cared a lot about the “real stuff”

Not really.

Real stuff should always be a pentest - penetration test where one is actively trying to exploit vulnerabilities. So person who orders that gets report with !!exploitable vulnerabilities!!.

Checking all common attack vectors is vulnerability scanning and is mostly running scanner and weeding out false positives but not trying to exploit any. Unfortunately most of companies/people call that a penetration test, while it cannot be, because there is no attempt at penetration. While automated scanning tools might do some magic to confirm vulnerability it still is not a penetration test.

In the end, bug bounty program is different in a way - you never know if any security researcher will even be interested in testing your system. So in reality you want to order penetration test. There is usually also a difference where scope of bug bounty program is limited to what is available publicly. Where company systems might not allow to create an account for non-business users, then security researcher will never have access to authenticated account to do the stuff. Bounty program has also other limitations because pentesting company gets a contract and can get much more access like do a white box test where they know the code and can work through it to prove there is exploitable issue.

Re: Data accidentally exposed by Microsoft AI researchers

#139

> This case is an example of the new risks organizations face when starting to leverage the power of AI more broadly, as more of their engineers now work with massive amounts of training data. It seems like a stretch to associate this risk with AI specifically. The era of "big data" started several years before the current AI boom.

The second clause covers that: this isn’t an AI problem, just as it wasn’t a big data problem when the same kinda of things happened a decade ago. It’s a problem caused when you set up something new outside of what the organization is used to and have people without appropriate training asked to make security decisions: I’d bet that this work was being done by people who were used to the academic style, blending personal and corporate use on the same device, etc. and simply weren’t thinking of this class of problem. The description sounds a lot like the grad students & postdocs I used to support – you’d see some dude with Steam on his workstation because it faster than his laptop and since he was in the lab 70 hours a week anyway, why not 90?

The challenge for organizations is figuring out how to support research projects and other experiments without opening themselves up to this kind of problem or stymieing R&D.

Re: Data accidentally exposed by Microsoft AI researchers

#140
post #75
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pentests where people actually get out of bed to do stuff (read code, read API docs etc) and then try to really hack your system are rare. Pentests where people go through the motions, send you report with a few unimportant bits highlit while patting you on the back for your exemplary security so you can check the box on whatever audit you're going through are common.

From my understanding as a non security expert: Pentest comes across more as checking all the common attack vectors don’t exist. Getting out of bed to do the so-called “real stuff” is typically called a bug bounty program or security researching. Both exist and I don’t see why most companies couldn’t start a bug bounty program if they really cared a lot about the “real stuff”

As in every industry there are cheapskates, and especially in pentesting it is often hard for the customer to tell the good ones from the bad ones. Nevertheless, I think that you have never worked with a credible pentesting vendor. I am doing these tests for a living and would be ashamed to deliver anything coming near your description :-)
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