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Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

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Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#131

Post by chernevik »

briancurtin wrote: post #130
chernevik wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Shame on any of them." You're saying shame on all of them, without any moment to hear how this might have been a mistake and not reflective of their organization. I know zero about these people, they might be every bit as bad as all that. But my suggestion was that perhaps people withhold judgment until the organization has a moment to respond. It's remarkable to see active objection to that. This positive refusal t…

They did take the time to respond, and up until that response I think most people were just looking for an explanation to know what the real deal was. The response surely gave you that. They spammed hundreds of people who mentioned them on Twitter with "we're sorry" and linked an apology letter that blamed the people who were offended. The apology letter solidifies the point that they think it's fun and harmless to o…

Their response is neither thoughtful nor convincing.

But my bit was about the haste to draw conclusions. That some of those conclusions turned out to be more right than wrong says more about luck than the process by which they were drawn.

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#132

Post by fruchtose »

einhverfr wrote: post #123
fruchtose wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many cases, this distinction is unnecessary. Even big companies like Microsoft have a long ways to go; their workforce is 76% male. Source: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/inside_ms.mspx

So you are talking about "in tech" as "working for tech companies" rather than doing "technology-related work" right? According to the Department of Labor, Microsoft is doing worse than the field as a whole..... Source: http://www.dol.gov/wb/factsheets/hitech02.htm

Yes, I'm talking about companies "in tech." You defined "in tech" as employees of technical startups, and I'm saying that even larger technical companies have these same issues, so restraining "in tech" to mean startups is not a necessary distinction. Sorry I was not clear on that.

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#133

Post by srl »

einhverfr wrote: post #122
srl wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More good points, from a more practical, small-scale perspective than I can give. Thank you. I find it interesting that you describe yourself as preferring to be a liminal figure, as do I (know that I know the word - which my spell-checker still does not), and we're both getting DV'd to oblivion on this one.

Being liminal can be lonely, but it is also powerful. Have you read Victor Turner's works on the subject btw?

No - thanks for the pointer. (Typo in my last comment - s/know that I know/now that I know/.)

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#134

Post by prodigal_erik »

MartinCron wrote: post #68
prodigal_erik wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Writing correct code is so close to impossible that only the obsessed will be even slightly competent. I want us to eject the army of male dilettantes from our industry, not go out of our way to attract female ones who will merely double the volume of broken crap we have to deal with. Which is not to say that "BEER WENCHES HURR" isn't better avoided. Have some class, people.

Who better to replace the ejected army of male dilettantes? Right now, we're effectively excluding half of the talent pool. That can't possibly be a good thing.

The talent pool consists of the people who are already being irresistibly drawn to the work. No matter how severe the shortage, nobody who needs to be lured into the industry (by pay or a more polite environment or whatever) can adequately substitute for obsession. When we try, we get the kind of embarrassing trainwrecks software is infamous for.

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#135

Post by MartinCron »

prodigal_erik wrote: post #134
MartinCron wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who better to replace the ejected army of male dilettantes? Right now, we're effectively excluding half of the talent pool. That can't possibly be a good thing.

The talent pool consists of the people who are already being irresistibly drawn to the work. No matter how severe the shortage, nobody who needs to be lured into the industry (by pay or a more polite environment or whatever) can adequately substitute for obsession. When we try, we get the kind of embarrassing trainwrecks software is infamous for.

I understand exactly what you're saying, you and I have had this exact argument before.

The notion of being "irresistibly drawn to the work" seems very shallow and amorphous. Would you (or I, for that matter) still be irresistibly drawn to it if the pay were dramatically worse? If the status were worse? If the working conditions were worse? If people systematically objectified you and your gender?

Following through with that example, do you think we should make day-to-day life worse for software developers to drive the-less-than-committed out? Maybe have hazing rituals or public shaming? Force interview candidates to walk through hot coals? Endure a persistently hostile and alienating workplace? It's all the same bullshit.

Regardless of the whole "learned skill vs. natural talent" question, the ability to make software well is an aptitude, it's not a calling. It's not (and shouldn't be) the priesthood.

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#136

Post by prodigal_erik »

MartinCron wrote: post #135
prodigal_erik wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The talent pool consists of the people who are already being irresistibly drawn to the work. No matter how severe the shortage, nobody who needs to be lured into the industry (by pay or a more polite environment or whatever) can adequately substitute for obsession. When we try, we get the kind of embarrassing trainwrecks software is infamous for.

I understand exactly what you're saying, you and I have had this exact argument before . The notion of being "irresistibly drawn to the work" seems very shallow and amorphous. Would you (or I, for that matter) still be irresistibly drawn to it if the pay were dramatically worse? If the status were worse? If the working conditions were worse? If people systematically objectified you and your gender ? Following through…

Sorry for repeating myself, this is I think a perspective that tends to be overlooked in recruiting discussions.

People like teachers and writers and musicians and i-bank analysts are treated like dirt because there's a surplus of them, and the work is being rationed to the ones with the greatest need to participate in their industries. I suppose there's some level of hellishness (say, minimum wage, a continually-ringing phone, and no testing) that would so overwhelm the privilege of writing code that I would eventually only do it on the side, wasting most of my life in a day job doing something mediocre. And there's a lesser level that would shake out only the duds and frauds, like turning the squelch dial on a radio. But it isn't going to happen anytime soon. In the current shortage of developers, even though the industry as a whole would be better off ramping down the astonishing pay and perks which have started attracting people we can't use, each employer defects and tries to outbid the others.

Which is why I get concerned at proposals to bring in a lot more disinterested people. Harassment is not an ethical tactic to keep them out, though; I think I draw the line at outreach.

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#137

Post by einhverfr »

fruchtose wrote: post #132
einhverfr wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are talking about "in tech" as "working for tech companies" rather than doing "technology-related work" right? According to the Department of Labor, Microsoft is doing worse than the field as a whole..... Source: http://www.dol.gov/wb/factsheets/hitech02.htm

Yes, I'm talking about companies "in tech." You defined "in tech" as employees of technical startups, and I'm saying that even larger technical companies have these same issues, so restraining "in tech" to mean startups is not a necessary distinction. Sorry I was not clear on that.

So to be clear, your concern is not that women aren't writing software but that they aren't working for software houses, correct?

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#138

Post by MartinCron »

prodigal_erik wrote: post #136
MartinCron wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand exactly what you're saying, you and I have had this exact argument before . The notion of being "irresistibly drawn to the work" seems very shallow and amorphous. Would you (or I, for that matter) still be irresistibly drawn to it if the pay were dramatically worse? If the status were worse? If the working conditions were worse? If people systematically objectified you and your gender ? Following through…

Sorry for repeating myself, this is I think a perspective that tends to be overlooked in recruiting discussions. People like teachers and writers and musicians and i-bank analysts are treated like dirt because there's a surplus of them, and the work is being rationed to the ones with the greatest need to participate in their industries. I suppose there's some level of hellishness (say, minimum wage, a continually-rin…

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I love a chance to find common ground. I think that we can agree that harassment can drive good people out and that outreach can bring bad people in.

It shouldn't be a goal to pull in disinterested people, but to create a culture in which the interest isn't unnecessarily smothered in half of the general population. People are complex, and can be pulled in by one facet of something (vintage corvettes are kind of cool) at the same time they are repelled by other facets of the same thing (I don't want to look like I am having a mid life crisis).

As a man in technology, I am pulled in by lots of things, but repelled by others. Lack of meaningful diversity in the culture is one of the more repellant things for me.

Re: Sexism in Tech. Or: CloudMine pulls its sponsorship of API Jam.

#139

Post by fruchtose »

einhverfr wrote: post #137
fruchtose wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I'm talking about companies "in tech." You defined "in tech" as employees of technical startups, and I'm saying that even larger technical companies have these same issues, so restraining "in tech" to mean startups is not a necessary distinction. Sorry I was not clear on that.

So to be clear, your concern is not that women aren't writing software but that they aren't working for software houses, correct?

No, I merely think software houses reflect the gender makeup of the industry fairly accurately. Hell, I would be surprised if it turned out that that anywhere near half of software workers in general are women; this would imply that the majority of female software engineers work independently. I find that extremely unlikely, given how few women enroll in computer engineering degrees at universities. My point is that Microsoft, a mature and established software company, has a hard time finding female engineers, and this reflects the state of the industry as a whole.
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